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Re: It didn't really seem something that needed elaborating Legolas Send a noteboard - 14/03/2010 05:51:58 PM
I suppose I can see that, I forget that a lot of times on the web people don't know one as well as in real life, where I'm generally known to be a shameless spewer of historical trivia typically of the "Contrary to popular belief..." type. So I am probably assuming more than was really justified, to me it's basically a proverbial comment, twin to 'history is written by the winners', not an endorsement or a surrender, and I wouldn't expect anyone to think that was my interpretation.

Makes sense.
Well, I'm not endorsing OSC on this, merely raising an article written by what I consider a self-described left-centrist who is fairly well-respected intellectually by sci-fi fantasy fans and whose works concentrate much on child education. Obviously I personally am not able to speak about normal HS history classes having not attended them. He actually rants about some of those points in his follow-up article, the one I accidentally originally posted. The specific accuracy of his comments isn't something I meant to address but rather that the NYT seems to be spinning this as the behavior of kooky far-right texans when it's a fairly widespread thing, not far-right versus mainstream but far-left versus everyone else.

It's a good thing you inserted "self-described" there.
As for the NYT picking out Texas, it has that history of being very influential nationally because of its population, and more drama and controversy than in most other states, so that seems rather obvious a choice.
Well, as I said, I'm not really trying to back OSC's point-for-point, but one of his comments was about how by pushing history of a certain era to a lower grade you de-emphasize it, since age is a big factor in being able to absorb something and history's complexity as a subject is not correlated to the era under discussion, as opposed to science. You can't teach Newtonian physics to five year olds then teach them arithmetic the next year, but you can teach the civil war without covering AmRev in great detail just as you can teach about early American history without delving into the crusades. Teach 1800-1820 to a five year old and 1860-1880 to a ten year old, and vice versa, and it's a pretty safe bet on which one of those two kids, all things being equal, will remember which period in better and fuller detail. A lot of us feel history of a given epoch, if it needs to be broken into multiple pieces, can just as easily be taught in summary then greater detail, rather than trying to go chronologically, since you really have to do that anyway. Civil war buffs don't proceed from 1860-65, they get the swath then focus on details in no particular order. 1877 was seen as a good natural break when many of those texts were written, since it was about halfways through and fell on a natural break, the end of reconstruction and the essentially the civil war. Now however we have the first hundred years versus the next 130 so clearly the break needs to get moved, as books written beginning then will be increasingly stuffed or summarized compared the other chunk. So shifting from the end of reconstruction to break instead at the beginning of 20th century makes more sense, and preusmably in our lifetimes if the want to split it in two they'll need to push the second half to begin around WWI or after.

I realize that the NC case is just an illustration, but it's interesting to debate its merits nonetheless. What I think is an important fact is that the Founding Fathers and early American history *does* appear in actual HS - but in the Civics class. Which one would think is ideal for OSC's views of how to teach about that period, since he sounds like he wants more propaganda than history anyway.

Because frankly, when I see sentences like "So the foundation story of America, the source of all the values and struggles that made America the freest, most prosperous, most generous, most exceptional nation in the history of the world will be a story for little kids?", I'm inclined to say, that sounds about right, the elder kids can get the historical version of America's foundation instead of the fairy tale version.

And it's absolutely true what you say about how one can go in greater depth and detail in higher years - why do you think Flanders has the system it has, with the 20th century coming in the last year so it can be studied in the most depth? I think it's absolutely right to reserve the most detailed treatment for the most recent period, as that is going to be the most relevant and the most important. If you then want to make an exception and give special additional attention to the founding of your country or the Civil War, that is one would think precisely what the Civics class is for. So I don't really see any major flaws in this suggestion they made.
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Texas Approves Curriculum Revised by Conservatives - 13/03/2010 12:02:15 AM 1113 Views
"Impartial Historical Account" is an oxymoron - 13/03/2010 12:21:20 AM 419 Views
Exactly, no such thing as "Impartial" history - 13/03/2010 12:54:49 AM 314 Views
So is "a sinless life," but that doesn't justify murder. *NM* - 14/03/2010 12:22:16 AM 139 Views
Strange choice of analogies... - 14/03/2010 12:17:03 PM 327 Views
I could be wrong, but I think his point was simply... - 14/03/2010 03:53:23 PM 404 Views
I think it was that it just seems too out of place - 14/03/2010 04:14:55 PM 445 Views
I dunno, you didn't elaborate much on your oxymoron statement. - 14/03/2010 04:29:04 PM 428 Views
It didn't really seem something that needed elaborating - 14/03/2010 05:20:33 PM 480 Views
Re: It didn't really seem something that needed elaborating - 14/03/2010 05:51:58 PM 486 Views
Re: It didn't really seem something that needed elaborating - 14/03/2010 06:31:45 PM 454 Views
I would object to the idea that objectivity was ever the goal - 15/03/2010 05:46:08 PM 411 Views
Heil! - 13/03/2010 12:22:35 AM 473 Views
It's about time. - 13/03/2010 01:17:25 AM 457 Views
Don't forget interned German-Americans in BOTH world wars. *NM* - 13/03/2010 02:47:25 AM 263 Views
Some of it can make sense - 13/03/2010 01:28:53 AM 486 Views
effing retarded *NM* - 13/03/2010 01:38:10 AM 153 Views
Re: Texas Approves Curriculum Revised by Conservatives - 13/03/2010 03:10:22 AM 421 Views
Many of those subjects are relevant school topics. *shrugs* *NM* - 13/03/2010 04:43:41 AM 226 Views
A fascinating thing, culture wars. - 14/03/2010 04:16:35 PM 494 Views
When does revisionist history descend to the level of mere hypocrisy? I weep for my country. - 15/03/2010 04:16:25 AM 533 Views
calling Zavala a city is a bit of a stretch don't you think? - 15/03/2010 05:39:03 PM 398 Views
Seguin's a city, or at least town; Zavala is a county. - 15/03/2010 09:00:54 PM 348 Views
Pfft, Seguin is a dump. - 15/03/2010 09:11:09 PM 324 Views
Not the point! - 15/03/2010 09:30:19 PM 324 Views
Zavalla is a town as well and city is a bit of stretch for Seguin - 15/03/2010 10:23:41 PM 300 Views
Fair enough, just trying to make clear I was speaking about municipality and county, respectively. - 29/03/2010 03:49:30 PM 330 Views
See the problem is the argument is total BS - 29/03/2010 05:27:53 PM 368 Views
Dunno if I'd go that far. - 29/03/2010 08:50:40 PM 466 Views
I am sure you wouldn't - 31/03/2010 04:19:09 PM 392 Views
Based on this article it is worryingly political - 15/03/2010 11:46:53 AM 315 Views
Do you have any examples of where they are not teaching the truth? - 15/03/2010 05:42:27 PM 346 Views
I think it is what they are leaving out that is worrisome. - 15/03/2010 06:58:38 PM 359 Views
I don't see anything sayting they are leaving that out - 15/03/2010 08:26:50 PM 351 Views
We were talking about this last night - 15/03/2010 11:38:02 PM 504 Views
Also - 15/03/2010 11:41:45 PM 290 Views
Still not sure I see a problem - 16/03/2010 04:58:50 PM 287 Views
This thread is indeed making me wonder how textbooks are used in the US... - 16/03/2010 05:05:13 PM 283 Views
for political posturing of course - 16/03/2010 05:26:13 PM 358 Views

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