It didn't really seem something that needed elaborating
Isaac Send a noteboard - 14/03/2010 05:20:33 PM
And if you reply to a call to do something with nothing more than "that's impossible", people generally get the idea that you're not very enthusiastic about even trying.
I suppose I can see that, I forget that a lot of times on the web people don't know one as well as in real life, where I'm generally known to be a shameless spewer of historical trivia typically of the "Contrary to popular belief..." type. So I am probably assuming more than was really justified, to me it's basically a proverbial comment, twin to 'history is written by the winners', not an endorsement or a surrender, and I wouldn't expect anyone to think that was my interpretation.
I'm rather unclear on why his comment is felt necessary though, since saying history should strive to be accurate is like saying science should strive to figure things out or clergy should seek to preach their faith. So essentially me say it's oxymoronic and him replying that we should strive for impartiality is sort of like my saying 'science doesn't know it all' and him saying 'that doesn't mean we should stop trying' or my saying 'no man can hope to know the mind of God' and him saying 'that doesn't mean we should all become atheists'. It just seems so out of place unless he assumed I was saying propaganda and distortion in history was fine which is why I queried and asked about the link, which happens to be a long rant by a centrist democrat about people flavoring kid's history books for political reasons. Mine is a cynical but true comment on history and on the NYT, which certainly knows about this and has chosen to highlight Texas when a lot of other states are doing the same thing under what I can only assume is the intentional equivalent of saying "The KKK is against gun control" an essentially transparent comment.
My main problem with OSC's article was the way he says that there's this suggestion about limiting American history in 11th grade to stuff that happened after 1877, and then rants about them omitting all those things before 1877. But I don't see anything anywhere about whether the things before 1877 are covered in other years, which rather undermines his whole point (for the sake of comparison, history classes where I'm from are spread chronologically over the six years of HS, starting with the prehistory and ancient civilizations in 7th grade and ending with the 20th century in 12th - so to me it seems quite normal to limit oneself to a certain time period in the history class of a given year).
Well, I'm not endorsing OSC on this, merely raising an article written by what I consider a self-described left-centrist who is fairly well-respected intellectually by sci-fi fantasy fans and whose works concentrate much on child education. Obviously I personally am not able to speak about normal HS history classes having not attended them. He actually rants about some of those points in his follow-up article, the one I accidentally originally posted. The specific accuracy of his comments isn't something I meant to address but rather that the NYT seems to be spinning this as the behavior of kooky far-right texans when it's a fairly widespread thing, not far-right versus mainstream but far-left versus everyone else.
I'm now looking to see if I can find any more details on this...
Edit: From the NC Department of Public Instruction website:
"North Carolina's social studies standards are being revised to provide students more time to study United States history by providing a full year of U.S. history in both elementary school and middle school. Currently, students do not have a full year of U.S. history in elementary school, and they do not study U.S. history in middle school. The process of revising the curriculum standards has just begun, and the current draft is expected to undergo several revisions in coming months.
Students would build on that study in high school Civics and Economics and in U.S. History. The high school Civics course includes learning about our nation's development and foundation. The high school U.S. History course would begin with 1877, the end of Reconstruction, in order to give students and teachers time to study our nation's history in more depth. The years prior to reconstruction would have been covered with students three times before - in fourth grade (as part of North Carolina history) in fifth grade and in seventh grade.
A wide range of elective U.S. History and other history courses also would be available to students who wish to continue history study in high school. "
Well, as I said, I'm not really trying to back OSC's point-for-point, but one of his comments was about how by pushing history of a certain era to a lower grade you de-emphasize it, since age is a big factor in being able to absorb something and history's complexity as a subject is not correlated to the era under discussion, as opposed to science. You can't teach Newtonian physics to five year olds then teach them arithmetic the next year, but you can teach the civil war without covering AmRev in great detail just as you can teach about early American history without delving into the crusades. Teach 1800-1820 to a five year old and 1860-1880 to a ten year old, and vice versa, and it's a pretty safe bet on which one of those two kids, all things being equal, will remember which period in better and fuller detail. A lot of us feel history of a given epoch, if it needs to be broken into multiple pieces, can just as easily be taught in summary then greater detail, rather than trying to go chronologically, since you really have to do that anyway. Civil war buffs don't proceed from 1860-65, they get the swath then focus on details in no particular order. 1877 was seen as a good natural break when many of those texts were written, since it was about halfways through and fell on a natural break, the end of reconstruction and the essentially the civil war. Now however we have the first hundred years versus the next 130 so clearly the break needs to get moved, as books written beginning then will be increasingly stuffed or summarized compared the other chunk. So shifting from the end of reconstruction to break instead at the beginning of 20th century makes more sense, and preusmably in our lifetimes if the want to split it in two they'll need to push the second half to begin around WWI or after.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Texas Approves Curriculum Revised by Conservatives
13/03/2010 12:02:15 AM
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"Impartial Historical Account" is an oxymoron
13/03/2010 12:21:20 AM
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So is "a sinless life," but that doesn't justify murder. *NM*
14/03/2010 12:22:16 AM
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Strange choice of analogies...
14/03/2010 12:17:03 PM
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I could be wrong, but I think his point was simply...
14/03/2010 03:53:23 PM
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I think it was that it just seems too out of place
14/03/2010 04:14:55 PM
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I dunno, you didn't elaborate much on your oxymoron statement.
14/03/2010 04:29:04 PM
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It didn't really seem something that needed elaborating
14/03/2010 05:20:33 PM
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It's about time.
13/03/2010 01:17:25 AM
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Don't forget interned German-Americans in BOTH world wars. *NM*
13/03/2010 02:47:25 AM
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Oh I haven't, but being Italian myself it's an issue close to my heart. *NM*
13/03/2010 04:41:19 AM
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Yes, because this article is all about presenting the truth in an unbiased manner *NM*
13/03/2010 11:02:20 AM
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I'm assuming Art. 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli 1797 is banned from Texan history lessons, then?
13/03/2010 12:26:41 PM
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And, along similar lines, both Article VII of the US Constitution and Missouri v. Holland. *NM*
14/03/2010 12:26:10 AM
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I would assume the Treaty of Tripoli 1797 would outside of the scope of a Texas history lesson
16/03/2010 07:54:53 PM
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Do the states just teach their own history, as opposed to that of what-was-then-the-USA? *NM*
16/03/2010 11:57:06 PM
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They teach both...at least at the college level. U.S. history and Texas History were requirements.. *NM*
17/03/2010 05:38:46 AM
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Texas history or Texas government?
18/03/2010 06:53:15 PM
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Good question....I don't remember if it was history or govt to be honest. *NM*
18/03/2010 07:59:10 PM
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When does revisionist history descend to the level of mere hypocrisy? I weep for my country.
15/03/2010 04:16:25 AM
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calling Zavala a city is a bit of a stretch don't you think?
15/03/2010 05:39:03 PM
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Seguin's a city, or at least town; Zavala is a county.
15/03/2010 09:00:54 PM
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Zavalla is a town as well and city is a bit of stretch for Seguin
15/03/2010 10:23:41 PM
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Fair enough, just trying to make clear I was speaking about municipality and county, respectively.
29/03/2010 03:49:30 PM
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See the problem is the argument is total BS
29/03/2010 05:27:53 PM
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Don't you guys essentially list all of the handful guys who fought at the Alamo already, anyway? *NM*
29/03/2010 08:55:34 PM
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There was 190 or so people there so no they are not all in the textbook
31/03/2010 05:31:41 PM
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Do you have any examples of where they are not teaching the truth?
15/03/2010 05:42:27 PM
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I think it is what they are leaving out that is worrisome.
15/03/2010 06:58:38 PM
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I don't see anything sayting they are leaving that out
15/03/2010 08:26:50 PM
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We were talking about this last night
15/03/2010 11:38:02 PM
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Still not sure I see a problem
16/03/2010 04:58:50 PM
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This thread is indeed making me wonder how textbooks are used in the US...
16/03/2010 05:05:13 PM
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