I only used Mexicans because I'm from Arizona
LadyLorraine Send a noteboard - 03/03/2010 07:04:29 AM
So given that I had many friends who were hispanic and fresh out of legal immigrant families, I went with it But you could say the same about other countries with similar or worse living conditions, which really was my point there. Mexicans/hispanics are just the group I'm most familiar with.
As I said, the only reason I used mexicans were because that's what I'm familiar with. You could substitute any applicable group, and I wasn't hinking there was some magic quota And I'm not saying that this family shouldn't come here!! I'm just saying that they shouldn't use Asylum to do so.
I don't think they were persecuted because it wasn't public-school or die!! They could have sent their kids to ANY school for that one year. They could have picked a nice little evangelical school, or a private school that taught a curriculum they agree with. They could have, you know, thought about the fact that home schooling is illegal in Germany before their kids were of schooling age. That's always a good thing too. Think of all that time and money and horrible indoctrination that could have been saved. The fines and police-marching are shitty, but it's not like they couldn't have started the application process before they had kids, or when their kids were nearing of-schooling age. Or did they think they'd be able to slip under the radar? I don't know. Either way, I think you do raise a good point how it could be considered persecution, but it's not like Germany teaches Nazi-ism and Atheism. Unless their kids are in middle school, they wouldn't even be learning controversial things like "evolution" (which I would presume as evangelicals they'd have an objection to). In this instance, I would not call it persecution. If it was a different country, I could possibly agree with you, but in this instance, I think Asylum was totally unnecessary.
Now, what we were arguing was two-fold.
1) Whether the family had a moral "right" to invoke the law. You said no, because there were other people who deserved it more. Namely, Mexicans. I pointed out that this family immigrating through use of Asylum law has no effect whatsoever on Mexican immigrants. It's not like there're ten slots every year, and once they're gone, they're gone. It's a case by case basis. Some people definitely deserve to be here more than these people, and aren't able to make it happen, for various reasons, but that doesn't mean this family shouldn't come too.
As I said, the only reason I used mexicans were because that's what I'm familiar with. You could substitute any applicable group, and I wasn't hinking there was some magic quota And I'm not saying that this family shouldn't come here!! I'm just saying that they shouldn't use Asylum to do so.
2) The morality of the law itself / the judge's decision. You said that the law shouldn't apply to people like this because they're not persecuted. Going to school for a year is "no big deal." I said that, generically, being fined tens of thousands of dollars and having policemen show up every morning to take your kids to be indoctrinated in a belief system you vehemently disagree with DOES sound like persecution. The only reason you don't think they were persecuted is that you don't agree with their morals.
I don't think they were persecuted because it wasn't public-school or die!! They could have sent their kids to ANY school for that one year. They could have picked a nice little evangelical school, or a private school that taught a curriculum they agree with. They could have, you know, thought about the fact that home schooling is illegal in Germany before their kids were of schooling age. That's always a good thing too. Think of all that time and money and horrible indoctrination that could have been saved. The fines and police-marching are shitty, but it's not like they couldn't have started the application process before they had kids, or when their kids were nearing of-schooling age. Or did they think they'd be able to slip under the radar? I don't know. Either way, I think you do raise a good point how it could be considered persecution, but it's not like Germany teaches Nazi-ism and Atheism. Unless their kids are in middle school, they wouldn't even be learning controversial things like "evolution" (which I would presume as evangelicals they'd have an objection to). In this instance, I would not call it persecution. If it was a different country, I could possibly agree with you, but in this instance, I think Asylum was totally unnecessary.
So. Nice little summary for us there.
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Homeschooling: German Family Gets Political Asylum in U.S.
02/03/2010 10:30:01 PM
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Looks like a win-win situation to me.
02/03/2010 11:01:22 PM
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Germany does have a history of getting rid of people it doesn't like *NM*
03/03/2010 02:08:37 PM
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Yawn. At least beckstcw was joking when he invoked Godwin's law below. I hope. *NM*
03/03/2010 02:10:18 PM
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That is a load of crap
03/03/2010 02:53:02 PM
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uhm, how would Germany be offending the US?
03/03/2010 02:56:52 PM
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Um.
03/03/2010 02:57:53 PM
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But our religious beliefs and belief in allowing religious freedom is fair game?
03/03/2010 03:09:48 PM
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Yes?
03/03/2010 03:40:30 PM
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If you made fun of the Native Americans I would be offended
03/03/2010 03:46:05 PM
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It's actually quite the opposite.
03/03/2010 03:57:19 PM
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and I would say they trying to fix intolerance with more intolerance
03/03/2010 04:13:49 PM
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That was probably the stupidest thing I ever saw you write
03/03/2010 03:28:39 PM
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You were the one who said good riddance
03/03/2010 03:43:24 PM
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It's the usual story of American ideology and European pragmatism.
03/03/2010 03:52:51 PM
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This is getting a bit off the discussion. Please keep it civil, everyone. *NM*
03/03/2010 06:55:11 PM
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Re: Homeschooling: German Family Gets Political Asylum in U.S.
03/03/2010 01:09:23 AM
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The socialization thing is mostly garbage
03/03/2010 02:32:19 AM
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Yep, exactly.
03/03/2010 02:41:14 AM
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Re: Yep, exactly.
03/03/2010 03:12:48 AM
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*shrugs* I said it was anecdotal. I have no hard figures, only experiences.
03/03/2010 03:28:29 AM
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The operative word IS mostly
03/03/2010 04:33:20 AM
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'Mostly' is all that matters
03/03/2010 05:46:01 AM
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Uhm, socialization is incredibly important.
03/03/2010 06:03:30 AM
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Yes, but you don't need to be taught to do it
03/03/2010 06:47:06 AM
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cats aren't pack or herd animals
03/03/2010 06:53:02 AM
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Something of an inside joke, sorry
03/03/2010 07:41:50 AM
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us closely associated with schools are sensitive on the issue too
03/03/2010 01:05:27 PM
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Re: us closely associated with schools are sensitive on the issue too
03/03/2010 10:19:21 PM
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I would agree that households with two working parnets shouldn't home school *NM*
03/03/2010 03:22:51 PM
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to jump on the "I was homeschooled and I have social skills" bandwagon...
03/03/2010 06:27:05 AM
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I was homeschooled through grade 12, and my mom has done pro bono legal work for HSLDA.
03/03/2010 02:20:38 AM
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I agree that it can be a very good option for some families
03/03/2010 04:42:21 AM
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Re: I agree that it can be a very good option for some families
03/03/2010 05:16:17 AM
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It depends on the public school.
03/03/2010 05:23:09 AM
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Re: It depends on the public school.
03/03/2010 05:45:07 AM
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"done right" is not always the case
03/03/2010 05:58:26 AM
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Re: "done right" is not always the case
03/03/2010 06:14:43 AM
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Re: "done right" is not always the case
03/03/2010 06:31:04 AM
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Well let's talk stats then.
03/03/2010 06:55:14 AM
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please do not get me started on statistis.
03/03/2010 07:11:19 AM
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Your comments on public school educations have rather limited relevance to other countries, though.
03/03/2010 09:53:30 AM
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While I support homeschooling, this is ridiculous.
03/03/2010 04:48:40 AM
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Meh.
03/03/2010 05:20:50 AM
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one year in a public school
03/03/2010 05:32:13 AM
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Re: one year in a public school
03/03/2010 05:58:48 AM
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No, I think i will nitpick.
03/03/2010 06:11:44 AM
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This is getting off track and wasting time.
03/03/2010 06:26:36 AM
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I'm not even certain it's 100% legal.
03/03/2010 06:34:44 AM
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Yes, but we can't argue abuse of law.
03/03/2010 06:51:23 AM
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I only used Mexicans because I'm from Arizona
03/03/2010 07:04:29 AM
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I think I have the gist of it,
03/03/2010 07:17:40 AM
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we haven't heard anything about their beliefs for me to think they're stupid.
03/03/2010 02:54:25 PM
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According to the Süddeutsche Zeitung...
03/03/2010 03:38:13 PM
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Say what?
03/03/2010 09:38:40 AM
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Being able raise your kids by your beliefs is a frivolous matter?
03/03/2010 03:21:23 PM
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Germany is not saying "you can't raise your kids by your beliefs"
03/03/2010 03:31:01 PM
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It's not a recent law, and supposedly other German families have moved to France and the UK.
03/03/2010 03:45:56 PM
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I think that would fly in very face of political assylum
03/03/2010 04:12:48 PM
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Yes, but they did not need political asylum.
03/03/2010 04:28:16 PM
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how is that different then other political refuges we allow in?
03/03/2010 04:55:14 PM
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I believe Legolas linked an article
03/03/2010 04:57:09 PM
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I never saw the link
03/03/2010 05:08:21 PM
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I'm not sure if they offered "formal" assurances or some such
03/03/2010 05:21:54 PM
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that was a mayor, I doubt he would have the final word on the issue
03/03/2010 05:46:22 PM
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You don't have a law about removing children from parental custody? At all?
03/03/2010 09:43:15 PM
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They can take your kids from for not sending them to school but not for home schooling them
03/03/2010 10:35:48 PM
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Compared to not being able to feed your kids, yes, it is.
03/03/2010 03:42:58 PM
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yes but we don't grant political assylum for being hungry
03/03/2010 04:34:23 PM
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no we don't.
03/03/2010 04:50:31 PM
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Do you have a better system?
03/03/2010 05:05:42 PM
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Immigration processes could certainly use some reform
03/03/2010 05:32:22 PM
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The system sucks, big government typically does not function well
03/03/2010 05:48:25 PM
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Oh, and did you miss the part where the federal government is appealing the decision? *NM*
03/03/2010 09:40:42 AM
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I would consider the threat of losing my children because of my beliefs to be a real threat *NM*
03/03/2010 02:54:08 PM
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Doesn't matter why, but all parents should have the right to homeschool.....
03/03/2010 04:48:57 AM
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That whole thing is pretty silly
03/03/2010 12:18:45 PM
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Re: socialising.
03/03/2010 06:13:49 PM
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I am opposed to homeschooling but believe it should be a legal option.
03/03/2010 02:32:34 PM
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I think you make a good point here
03/03/2010 05:22:59 PM
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but...but...parents can't educate their children outside of school!!
03/03/2010 05:40:30 PM
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I don't agree with them I just support their right to be wrong
03/03/2010 06:04:11 PM
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The statistics are flawed, as I've noted above
03/03/2010 07:07:11 PM
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they tend to beat private schools as well would should flatten out the demographics
03/03/2010 07:53:38 PM
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Your views on this are not fact-driven
03/03/2010 09:13:07 PM
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No, what you're saying is that my answer isn't driven by STATISTICS.
03/03/2010 10:36:50 PM
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Granted, but there is no obvious source for bias
03/03/2010 10:57:19 PM
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You mean aside from the fact that you are already arguing about it?
04/03/2010 12:14:02 AM
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Yes, I mentioned this in my reply to Tom, see below...
04/03/2010 12:19:42 AM
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And the wikipedia article you pointed me to had a different study that contradicts your point.
03/03/2010 10:42:54 PM
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Religious or *moral* instruction
03/03/2010 10:49:48 PM
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I haven't really "met" you the way I meant it in that reply
03/03/2010 11:48:11 PM
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Granted but for our purposes I think people on this site would qualify
04/03/2010 12:05:03 AM
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Umm Massachusetts did have slavery in 1717
03/03/2010 02:55:25 PM
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His argument on the law of Germany is a bad one generally, though, not just for that reason.
03/03/2010 03:31:00 PM
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Wow....so this got the board going. A question for everyone...
03/03/2010 06:02:57 PM
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I think it is incumbent on the state to show that kids are being in some way harmed
03/03/2010 06:07:13 PM
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Interesting
03/03/2010 06:25:43 PM
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I never said there should be no limits on what parents should be able to do
03/03/2010 06:38:53 PM
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I think it's safe to say teaching your kids to be little sociopaths qualifies as harm.
03/03/2010 09:17:48 PM
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I think so too
03/03/2010 10:46:41 PM
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I think the problem there was it was seen as inherently political, that, and showing harm.
03/03/2010 11:44:21 PM
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Yes they do. Provided...
03/03/2010 07:04:46 PM
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There is a reason why education until 18 (or 16, depending) is not merely a right, but a duty.
03/03/2010 10:00:53 PM
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Hmmph. Inappropriate action on the part of the judge who allowed them to stay.
03/03/2010 06:22:08 PM
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You just skip the part where they have to show they are being persecuted
03/03/2010 06:54:20 PM
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As I said, most people would prefer to have their safety threatened to losing their kids. *NM*
06/03/2010 10:14:52 PM
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*walks in, looks around*
03/03/2010 07:52:09 PM
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Interesting
03/03/2010 11:02:27 PM
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