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I guess one would have to see the documentary to really judge. Legolas Send a noteboard - 23/02/2010 08:58:47 PM
At least going by what he told me (I'll assume it's true for the sake of argument), the documentary had little to no science backing it up and was extremely one-sided. If you had replaced "Mixed-Race" with "Aryan" I think plenty of people would consider it propaganda.

But as Celia points out, the point is genetically valid, so saying "it's useful to have new blood in the gene pool" is perfectly defensible. If I thought the documentary was really telling everybody to marry a Turk or Arab and how marriages between ethnic Germans (or whatever) are bad, I might think differently about it, but I'd have to see some pretty convincing evidence before I'll buy that something that ludicrous was actually broadcasted.
Wait, so this restaurant isn't McDonalds? I thought it was. I'd would definitely call it Mimeburgers or whatever if that's the name, but everyone was calling it McDonalds, so I assumed they were indeed talking about McDonalds.

The restaurant chain is called Quick, as stated in the original article. Admittedly, it's a total rip-off of McDonalds, but it's an entirely different company all the same, a French one which according to the article is even largely owned by a state investment company (which I had no idea about). And in France and Belgium, Quick is a competitor on equal footing to McDonalds. I don't know who of the Americans started talking about McDonalds instead, but I found it funny. :P
And I don't blame them for wanting to limit American cultural influence either. They are France, not America Jr.

Could've fooled me, what with the raging nationalism and "let's put a French flag in every classroom!". :P
Yes, I'm actually quite aware of that, but I didn't want to compound the issue. I turn into a raging volcano of vitriol when talking about Elsass-Lothringen and France's fairly sucessful de-Germanization of the area, but regardless of that, I don't want to see the same happen to French culture. I want to get the other cultures out from under france's boot, yes, but I also want to see french culture remain. And I don't even like France :P

I really can't agree that that would be "compounding the issue". On the contrary, it's extremely relevant to the discussion at hand - France was not some monolithic culture before they had large numbers of Muslims. The European countries are very different from America because until fairly recently they had far less cultural mixture and intermingling *within one and the same location*, but in many European countries there's still been multiculturality, multilinguism etc. for centuries, by having culturally different regions within the same country.

Something interesting in this regard is what some Swiss newspapers dragged up from their country's history after the infamous minaret ban: that in the 1890s, Swiss voters passed a remarkably similar proposal, banning the construction of synagogues. I don't say that to draw misguided parallels between anti-Semitism and the immigration-sceptic movement (to use a less loaded term than "Islamophobic";), but to point out that this kind of struggle and the feeling that the local identity is under threat isn't really that new.
No, I don't think everything was better in the past. One drawback of ethnic nations is the oppression of other ethnic groups. But those were pre-existing cultural groups that France conquered/oppressed, not people immigrating to France. Obviously it is wrong to make the former be French, but I don't think it is wrong to expect people voluntarily moving to France to assimilate.

I don't either, but then most of them do assimilate. In fact, one might say that a large part of the problem is that they assimilate far too well - in the wrong regards. You can say many bad things about the Islamic world, but until very recently, and as far as I know even lasting to this day, they have one remarkable characteristic: very low levels of crime, compared to similarly poor countries elsewhere. Then significant numbers of them moved to Europe, and now the largest part of the problems European countries have with these Muslim immigrants lie in the crime levels among their youth, and the way they make people feel unsafe in some neighbourhoods. Where does all that crime suddenly come from? Certainly not from Islam, and not from their home countries or home culture. The large majority of the actually devout Muslims in Western-Europe - not really as large a group as you might think - are law-obedient people, model citizens in many regards. The bad apples, the criminals, those aren't exactly big believers for the most part. Yeah, sure, you get some of the worst extremists turning to violence, but what kind of percentages are we talking about then?
I just worry about Europe. In their quest to avoid the former situation, they seem to have become lax about the latter, and it worries me. It worries me for all of Europe (France just happens to be the country we're talking about right now). But everything I've said about france I would say about the other European nations as well. Even Poland :P

Yes, but really, as I just said elsewhere, not every country is the same and not every situation is the same. France has a long and far from glorious history in the countries that most of their immigrants originate from, which has both positive (most immigrants know some French even before coming to France, as it's the language of the elite in Morocco and Algeria) and negative side-effects. For all that Sarkozy whines about burqas, the main issues that exist with the Muslim minorities in France are really quite unrelated to Islam or to a failure of integration (excepting one important factor which is the way the conservative gender relations in Islam, combined with "new" Western permissivity, openness and less respect for authority figures results in horribly spoiled and authority-challenging Muslim boys).
Also, there are still a few Breton Nationalists around? That makes my heart happy :)

Uh, well, I think there are still some people around who speak the language... I'm not sure if there's much of a separatist movement (I only know the one in Savoye gets like 0.5% of the vote there, but then Savoye doesn't have its own language and all).
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French fast food chain goes halal - 19/02/2010 06:34:59 AM 1398 Views
that isn't unusual at all...I don't see the big deal - 19/02/2010 06:42:58 AM 386 Views
...how is it "discriminatory?" - 19/02/2010 06:49:24 AM 855 Views
just as a note - 19/02/2010 01:06:30 PM 479 Views
(It wasn't a reference to Hinduism) - 19/02/2010 05:29:40 PM 484 Views
yah. that's hinduism - 19/02/2010 05:52:41 PM 504 Views
Makes sense - 19/02/2010 06:12:49 PM 488 Views
Not necessarily prejudiced or bigots - 19/02/2010 12:03:17 PM 757 Views
Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 12:58:20 PM 543 Views
it's not discrimination in the slightest - 19/02/2010 01:13:03 PM 667 Views
That was my point - 19/02/2010 01:22:55 PM 532 Views
sorry - 19/02/2010 01:29:11 PM 508 Views
No problem - 19/02/2010 02:02:46 PM 485 Views
Re: Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 01:44:27 PM 528 Views
Re: Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 02:15:37 PM 644 Views
Re: Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 02:33:30 PM 736 Views
dude. Every time anyone makes a choice, it's discrimination. - 19/02/2010 02:40:18 PM 569 Views
Re: dude. Every time anyone makes a choice, it's discrimination. - 19/02/2010 03:22:14 PM 659 Views
yes, how dare a shop specialize - 19/02/2010 03:44:59 PM 474 Views
Indeed *NM* - 19/02/2010 03:53:28 PM 268 Views
...I don't think that's a thing? - 19/02/2010 05:31:52 PM 521 Views
To the contrary - 19/02/2010 07:07:40 PM 560 Views
the restaurant does not have 100% halal food. - 19/02/2010 07:40:52 PM 503 Views
It was more of an answer to beetnemesis's hypothetical comment - 19/02/2010 08:18:58 PM 618 Views
I thought that they were still serving fish, at least? *NM* - 20/02/2010 02:24:21 AM 346 Views
hahahaha - 20/02/2010 01:01:07 AM 589 Views
Re: hahahaha - 20/02/2010 04:10:31 AM 524 Views
Interesting - 20/02/2010 04:01:17 AM 538 Views
Keep in mind that France doesn't have remotely near as many fastfood restaurants as the US... - 19/02/2010 01:23:49 PM 726 Views
but what's wrong with eating halal meat? - 19/02/2010 01:33:17 PM 558 Views
Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 02:06:38 PM 637 Views
but is it the jews and observant christians complaining? - 19/02/2010 02:30:58 PM 488 Views
I've no clue - 19/02/2010 02:46:53 PM 661 Views
why would they be serving pork at a fast food anyways? - 19/02/2010 02:53:36 PM 477 Views
Well normally bacon is considered pork - 19/02/2010 03:07:45 PM 476 Views
Dude, it's France. They don't do English breakfasts. - 19/02/2010 03:19:48 PM 660 Views
American Breakfast, the english stole it from us - 19/02/2010 03:36:42 PM 589 Views
They put salt on their fries here, tons of it in fact... - 19/02/2010 03:48:06 PM 619 Views
Re: They put salt on their fries here, tons of it in fact... - 19/02/2010 04:16:22 PM 625 Views
Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 02:31:17 PM 494 Views
from what we discussed in Meat Sciene - 19/02/2010 02:35:59 PM 557 Views
Oh? - 19/02/2010 02:42:57 PM 580 Views
you could probably argue that it is less humane - 19/02/2010 02:54:32 PM 473 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 04:03:41 PM 714 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 04:51:14 PM 621 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 04:54:26 PM 683 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 05:03:28 PM 453 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 06:10:50 PM 470 Views
Upper tip - 19/02/2010 06:14:06 PM 416 Views
Re: but what's wrong with eating halal meat? - 19/02/2010 02:33:14 PM 607 Views
+1 - 19/02/2010 07:07:36 PM 491 Views
It is a MacDonalds not public service provider - 19/02/2010 08:11:36 PM 484 Views
Re: Keep in mind that France doesn't have remotely near as many fastfood restaurants as the US... - 19/02/2010 01:57:15 PM 623 Views
That's what I was thinking too. - 19/02/2010 06:04:02 PM 642 Views
You think the reasons are as objective as that ? - 19/02/2010 02:24:36 PM 444 Views
I wouldn't exactly call the reasons I named "objective", myself. - 19/02/2010 02:37:56 PM 566 Views
Haha, yeah - 19/02/2010 07:24:00 PM 480 Views
Simply put : Many are afraid France is being taken over by the Muslims. - 19/02/2010 02:14:19 PM 594 Views
Re: Simply put : Many are afraid France is being taken over by the Muslims. - 19/02/2010 05:02:18 PM 505 Views
Are you refering to something specific ? - 19/02/2010 07:18:38 PM 518 Views
Re: Are you refering to something specific ? - 19/02/2010 07:21:35 PM 442 Views
In a sense that's what blocked the inclusion of Turkey into the EU. - 19/02/2010 07:26:51 PM 437 Views
Re: In a sense that's what blocked the inclusion of Turkey into the EU. - 19/02/2010 07:30:33 PM 479 Views
The question there is what's pretext and what's actual reason. - 19/02/2010 08:53:44 PM 509 Views
Re: The question there is what's pretext and what's actual reason. - 19/02/2010 08:55:53 PM 565 Views
Why are such politicians automatically "crazy" - 19/02/2010 10:16:53 PM 598 Views
yep. *NM* - 20/02/2010 12:09:56 PM 243 Views
Really can't see why people would get so worked up - 19/02/2010 03:57:37 PM 467 Views
No big deal.. - 19/02/2010 04:16:08 PM 508 Views
i can't see why it matters that they did. i think it's great. *NM* - 19/02/2010 05:23:44 PM 313 Views
So, what is the difference between Halal Beef and normal beef? *NM* - 19/02/2010 07:06:21 PM 234 Views
the way it is killed. *NM* - 19/02/2010 07:26:02 PM 341 Views
I wonder how teh Saudis or Iranians would react... - 19/02/2010 08:51:11 PM 490 Views
most halal foods would always qualify as kosher, i believe. - 20/02/2010 02:26:49 AM 429 Views
Nope. But it does work the other way around. *NM* - 20/02/2010 04:50:26 AM 258 Views
fair enough, then *NM* - 20/02/2010 05:56:00 AM 393 Views
yupp, kosher counts as halal, halal is not kosher though *NM* - 20/02/2010 12:55:30 PM 351 Views
So let me get this straight... - 20/02/2010 08:42:04 AM 617 Views
wow. first of all FRANCE is changing nothing - 20/02/2010 06:28:27 PM 608 Views
I think you missed his point - 20/02/2010 10:12:18 PM 494 Views
There are many answers one could give, but the most basic one is quite simple... - 20/02/2010 10:20:14 PM 618 Views
And yet having come of their own free will... - 20/02/2010 11:11:51 PM 469 Views
Way to read half a post. I am impressed. - 21/02/2010 12:10:39 AM 488 Views
It always starts small. - 21/02/2010 12:32:11 AM 462 Views
Awesome, you figured out their master plan!! - 21/02/2010 02:06:27 AM 548 Views
Like I said... - 21/02/2010 08:43:32 AM 501 Views
and really... in this case it's a private enterprise we're talking about - 21/02/2010 12:55:27 AM 456 Views
exactly. *NM* - 21/02/2010 02:06:57 AM 372 Views
Oh I know, don't get me wrong. I was trying to clarify *NM* - 21/02/2010 04:13:19 AM 297 Views
I didn't miss it, I just thought it wasn't worth noting. - 21/02/2010 02:11:14 AM 698 Views
Re: wow. first of all FRANCE is changing nothing - 20/02/2010 10:13:12 PM 662 Views
Yes, i'm sure there is no other restaurant in that whole area. - 21/02/2010 02:04:29 AM 623 Views
that's not the point. - 21/02/2010 08:46:14 AM 530 Views
dude. your 'THEY" did not do anything. - 21/02/2010 03:01:48 PM 583 Views
So if your French every restaurant should only be allowed to serve what you want served? - 22/02/2010 07:18:00 PM 459 Views
I don't think French society should be forced to consume Islamic food. - 23/02/2010 01:31:03 AM 478 Views
No one is forcing anyone to do anything. - 23/02/2010 02:47:56 AM 510 Views
Sure they are. - 23/02/2010 03:05:12 AM 520 Views
well they apparently still have 354 of that particular restaurant - 23/02/2010 03:20:07 AM 477 Views
Don't you get it? - 23/02/2010 03:51:09 AM 463 Views
Actually they're not ragheads. - 23/02/2010 03:43:14 PM 440 Views
If you have a sarcasm meter, you might want to switch it on. *NM* - 23/02/2010 05:37:41 PM 233 Views
Indeed, 354 throughout the whole of France, which actually isn't that many. - 23/02/2010 03:42:30 PM 496 Views
how many French people starved to death before McDonalds opened? - 23/02/2010 04:30:32 PM 500 Views
Millions - 23/02/2010 04:41:23 PM 469 Views
Huh. - 23/02/2010 06:10:17 PM 473 Views
They are not forced to do anything - 23/02/2010 04:41:35 PM 454 Views
So Muslims should be forced to eat French food because the French are lazy to open more restaurants? - 23/02/2010 04:43:13 AM 419 Views
well don't you see? - 23/02/2010 12:41:40 PM 505 Views
Re: well don't you see? - 23/02/2010 05:02:16 PM 462 Views
I agree with you. *NM* - 23/02/2010 05:10:53 PM 222 Views
This is meant to be an edit... - 23/02/2010 05:14:23 PM 505 Views
I agree, Bekah, but it's not like there's not a middle ground - 23/02/2010 05:25:30 PM 465 Views
It's the sheer numbers that are worrisome - 23/02/2010 06:25:17 PM 592 Views
That assumes a great deal - 23/02/2010 06:52:41 PM 597 Views
Re: That assumes a great deal - 23/02/2010 08:00:28 PM 617 Views
Very true. Test case: Lebanon - 24/02/2010 12:26:43 AM 457 Views
Really? - 24/02/2010 10:02:18 AM 457 Views
What he's referring to... - 24/02/2010 10:20:22 AM 611 Views
Oh that, that I knew with the political system - 24/02/2010 10:57:08 AM 451 Views
Re: This is meant to be an edit... - 23/02/2010 05:43:03 PM 658 Views
Well, biologically speaking, it is healthier for the gene pool. - 23/02/2010 06:55:11 PM 482 Views
"Propaganda"? Kind of exaggerating there... - 23/02/2010 07:48:39 PM 571 Views
How is it not propaganda? - 23/02/2010 08:31:12 PM 643 Views
I can certainly see your vitrol. Now I'm a bit confused though. - 23/02/2010 08:54:54 PM 489 Views
Re: I can certainly see your vitrol. Now I'm a bit confused though. - 23/02/2010 09:08:33 PM 883 Views
your view point is idealistic, I think - 23/02/2010 09:24:08 PM 746 Views
I guess one would have to see the documentary to really judge. - 23/02/2010 08:58:47 PM 592 Views
The language really isn't the problem in France. - 23/02/2010 08:15:52 PM 615 Views
I will conceed that point - 23/02/2010 08:53:26 PM 591 Views
Oh yeah, definitely, re: your point about Americans *NM* - 23/02/2010 09:00:20 PM 251 Views
Our differing opinion does not make us wrong. or that you are. - 23/02/2010 09:07:38 PM 626 Views
I'm not dismissing the problem entirely. - 23/02/2010 09:03:50 PM 601 Views
Well. I wasn't necessarily specifying France. *NM* - 23/02/2010 09:48:44 PM 229 Views
But a lot of them were already in a part of France or had been born in a part of France - 23/02/2010 05:30:24 PM 511 Views
*gasp* There are no French Muslims!! - 23/02/2010 05:36:38 PM 608 Views
Or! - 24/02/2010 10:04:44 AM 691 Views
It's funny because it's true - Algeria was administratively a part of France, iirc. *NM* - 23/02/2010 07:51:17 PM 204 Views
It does make the situation more complicated - 24/02/2010 10:30:28 AM 518 Views
Why should you have to completely change who you are? - 23/02/2010 05:35:51 PM 467 Views
Yes, of course - 23/02/2010 05:48:10 PM 448 Views
Yes, but the difference was I knew it was hyperbole - 23/02/2010 07:01:49 PM 457 Views
Re: Yes, but the difference was I knew it was hyperbole - 23/02/2010 07:38:54 PM 590 Views
So they should be treated as less because they're immigrants? - 23/02/2010 07:45:16 PM 539 Views
They're not Turks, they're mostly from France's old colonies. - 23/02/2010 08:10:25 PM 450 Views
The French didn't seem to feel the need to go native when they were in Middle Eastern countries - 23/02/2010 05:55:28 PM 686 Views
What are you refering to? - 23/02/2010 06:00:45 PM 475 Views
Brush up on your history then - 23/02/2010 06:25:53 PM 509 Views
Thank you - 23/02/2010 06:34:19 PM 463 Views
I would think that simply having McDonalds there is a greater threat to French cultrue - 23/02/2010 06:52:34 PM 595 Views
This. well stated. *NM* - 23/02/2010 07:03:47 PM 238 Views
Why thank you *NM* - 23/02/2010 11:49:22 PM 237 Views
Many? - 23/02/2010 07:40:06 AM 512 Views
sorry I thought it was a restaurant - 23/02/2010 04:41:39 AM 470 Views

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