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I guess one would have to see the documentary to really judge. Legolas Send a noteboard - 23/02/2010 08:58:47 PM
At least going by what he told me (I'll assume it's true for the sake of argument), the documentary had little to no science backing it up and was extremely one-sided. If you had replaced "Mixed-Race" with "Aryan" I think plenty of people would consider it propaganda.

But as Celia points out, the point is genetically valid, so saying "it's useful to have new blood in the gene pool" is perfectly defensible. If I thought the documentary was really telling everybody to marry a Turk or Arab and how marriages between ethnic Germans (or whatever) are bad, I might think differently about it, but I'd have to see some pretty convincing evidence before I'll buy that something that ludicrous was actually broadcasted.
Wait, so this restaurant isn't McDonalds? I thought it was. I'd would definitely call it Mimeburgers or whatever if that's the name, but everyone was calling it McDonalds, so I assumed they were indeed talking about McDonalds.

The restaurant chain is called Quick, as stated in the original article. Admittedly, it's a total rip-off of McDonalds, but it's an entirely different company all the same, a French one which according to the article is even largely owned by a state investment company (which I had no idea about). And in France and Belgium, Quick is a competitor on equal footing to McDonalds. I don't know who of the Americans started talking about McDonalds instead, but I found it funny. :P
And I don't blame them for wanting to limit American cultural influence either. They are France, not America Jr.

Could've fooled me, what with the raging nationalism and "let's put a French flag in every classroom!". :P
Yes, I'm actually quite aware of that, but I didn't want to compound the issue. I turn into a raging volcano of vitriol when talking about Elsass-Lothringen and France's fairly sucessful de-Germanization of the area, but regardless of that, I don't want to see the same happen to French culture. I want to get the other cultures out from under france's boot, yes, but I also want to see french culture remain. And I don't even like France :P

I really can't agree that that would be "compounding the issue". On the contrary, it's extremely relevant to the discussion at hand - France was not some monolithic culture before they had large numbers of Muslims. The European countries are very different from America because until fairly recently they had far less cultural mixture and intermingling *within one and the same location*, but in many European countries there's still been multiculturality, multilinguism etc. for centuries, by having culturally different regions within the same country.

Something interesting in this regard is what some Swiss newspapers dragged up from their country's history after the infamous minaret ban: that in the 1890s, Swiss voters passed a remarkably similar proposal, banning the construction of synagogues. I don't say that to draw misguided parallels between anti-Semitism and the immigration-sceptic movement (to use a less loaded term than "Islamophobic";), but to point out that this kind of struggle and the feeling that the local identity is under threat isn't really that new.
No, I don't think everything was better in the past. One drawback of ethnic nations is the oppression of other ethnic groups. But those were pre-existing cultural groups that France conquered/oppressed, not people immigrating to France. Obviously it is wrong to make the former be French, but I don't think it is wrong to expect people voluntarily moving to France to assimilate.

I don't either, but then most of them do assimilate. In fact, one might say that a large part of the problem is that they assimilate far too well - in the wrong regards. You can say many bad things about the Islamic world, but until very recently, and as far as I know even lasting to this day, they have one remarkable characteristic: very low levels of crime, compared to similarly poor countries elsewhere. Then significant numbers of them moved to Europe, and now the largest part of the problems European countries have with these Muslim immigrants lie in the crime levels among their youth, and the way they make people feel unsafe in some neighbourhoods. Where does all that crime suddenly come from? Certainly not from Islam, and not from their home countries or home culture. The large majority of the actually devout Muslims in Western-Europe - not really as large a group as you might think - are law-obedient people, model citizens in many regards. The bad apples, the criminals, those aren't exactly big believers for the most part. Yeah, sure, you get some of the worst extremists turning to violence, but what kind of percentages are we talking about then?
I just worry about Europe. In their quest to avoid the former situation, they seem to have become lax about the latter, and it worries me. It worries me for all of Europe (France just happens to be the country we're talking about right now). But everything I've said about france I would say about the other European nations as well. Even Poland :P

Yes, but really, as I just said elsewhere, not every country is the same and not every situation is the same. France has a long and far from glorious history in the countries that most of their immigrants originate from, which has both positive (most immigrants know some French even before coming to France, as it's the language of the elite in Morocco and Algeria) and negative side-effects. For all that Sarkozy whines about burqas, the main issues that exist with the Muslim minorities in France are really quite unrelated to Islam or to a failure of integration (excepting one important factor which is the way the conservative gender relations in Islam, combined with "new" Western permissivity, openness and less respect for authority figures results in horribly spoiled and authority-challenging Muslim boys).
Also, there are still a few Breton Nationalists around? That makes my heart happy :)

Uh, well, I think there are still some people around who speak the language... I'm not sure if there's much of a separatist movement (I only know the one in Savoye gets like 0.5% of the vote there, but then Savoye doesn't have its own language and all).
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French fast food chain goes halal - 19/02/2010 06:34:59 AM 1475 Views
that isn't unusual at all...I don't see the big deal - 19/02/2010 06:42:58 AM 466 Views
...how is it "discriminatory?" - 19/02/2010 06:49:24 AM 934 Views
just as a note - 19/02/2010 01:06:30 PM 550 Views
(It wasn't a reference to Hinduism) - 19/02/2010 05:29:40 PM 560 Views
yah. that's hinduism - 19/02/2010 05:52:41 PM 592 Views
Makes sense - 19/02/2010 06:12:49 PM 570 Views
Not necessarily prejudiced or bigots - 19/02/2010 12:03:17 PM 860 Views
Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 12:58:20 PM 616 Views
it's not discrimination in the slightest - 19/02/2010 01:13:03 PM 741 Views
That was my point - 19/02/2010 01:22:55 PM 613 Views
sorry - 19/02/2010 01:29:11 PM 574 Views
No problem - 19/02/2010 02:02:46 PM 562 Views
Re: Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 01:44:27 PM 573 Views
Re: Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 02:15:37 PM 722 Views
Re: Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 02:33:30 PM 817 Views
dude. Every time anyone makes a choice, it's discrimination. - 19/02/2010 02:40:18 PM 645 Views
Re: dude. Every time anyone makes a choice, it's discrimination. - 19/02/2010 03:22:14 PM 731 Views
yes, how dare a shop specialize - 19/02/2010 03:44:59 PM 557 Views
Indeed *NM* - 19/02/2010 03:53:28 PM 311 Views
...I don't think that's a thing? - 19/02/2010 05:31:52 PM 596 Views
To the contrary - 19/02/2010 07:07:40 PM 633 Views
the restaurant does not have 100% halal food. - 19/02/2010 07:40:52 PM 585 Views
It was more of an answer to beetnemesis's hypothetical comment - 19/02/2010 08:18:58 PM 689 Views
I thought that they were still serving fish, at least? *NM* - 20/02/2010 02:24:21 AM 372 Views
hahahaha - 20/02/2010 01:01:07 AM 665 Views
Re: hahahaha - 20/02/2010 04:10:31 AM 600 Views
Interesting - 20/02/2010 04:01:17 AM 611 Views
Keep in mind that France doesn't have remotely near as many fastfood restaurants as the US... - 19/02/2010 01:23:49 PM 799 Views
but what's wrong with eating halal meat? - 19/02/2010 01:33:17 PM 637 Views
Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 02:06:38 PM 724 Views
but is it the jews and observant christians complaining? - 19/02/2010 02:30:58 PM 560 Views
I've no clue - 19/02/2010 02:46:53 PM 740 Views
why would they be serving pork at a fast food anyways? - 19/02/2010 02:53:36 PM 553 Views
Well normally bacon is considered pork - 19/02/2010 03:07:45 PM 562 Views
Dude, it's France. They don't do English breakfasts. - 19/02/2010 03:19:48 PM 706 Views
American Breakfast, the english stole it from us - 19/02/2010 03:36:42 PM 661 Views
They put salt on their fries here, tons of it in fact... - 19/02/2010 03:48:06 PM 690 Views
Re: They put salt on their fries here, tons of it in fact... - 19/02/2010 04:16:22 PM 697 Views
Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 02:31:17 PM 582 Views
from what we discussed in Meat Sciene - 19/02/2010 02:35:59 PM 636 Views
Oh? - 19/02/2010 02:42:57 PM 661 Views
you could probably argue that it is less humane - 19/02/2010 02:54:32 PM 546 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 04:03:41 PM 797 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 04:51:14 PM 698 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 04:54:26 PM 761 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 05:03:28 PM 531 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 06:10:50 PM 563 Views
Upper tip - 19/02/2010 06:14:06 PM 502 Views
Re: but what's wrong with eating halal meat? - 19/02/2010 02:33:14 PM 687 Views
+1 - 19/02/2010 07:07:36 PM 561 Views
It is a MacDonalds not public service provider - 19/02/2010 08:11:36 PM 566 Views
Re: Keep in mind that France doesn't have remotely near as many fastfood restaurants as the US... - 19/02/2010 01:57:15 PM 700 Views
That's what I was thinking too. - 19/02/2010 06:04:02 PM 723 Views
You think the reasons are as objective as that ? - 19/02/2010 02:24:36 PM 524 Views
I wouldn't exactly call the reasons I named "objective", myself. - 19/02/2010 02:37:56 PM 646 Views
Haha, yeah - 19/02/2010 07:24:00 PM 559 Views
Simply put : Many are afraid France is being taken over by the Muslims. - 19/02/2010 02:14:19 PM 676 Views
Re: Simply put : Many are afraid France is being taken over by the Muslims. - 19/02/2010 05:02:18 PM 593 Views
Are you refering to something specific ? - 19/02/2010 07:18:38 PM 596 Views
Re: Are you refering to something specific ? - 19/02/2010 07:21:35 PM 517 Views
In a sense that's what blocked the inclusion of Turkey into the EU. - 19/02/2010 07:26:51 PM 509 Views
Re: In a sense that's what blocked the inclusion of Turkey into the EU. - 19/02/2010 07:30:33 PM 555 Views
The question there is what's pretext and what's actual reason. - 19/02/2010 08:53:44 PM 582 Views
Re: The question there is what's pretext and what's actual reason. - 19/02/2010 08:55:53 PM 635 Views
Why are such politicians automatically "crazy" - 19/02/2010 10:16:53 PM 684 Views
yep. *NM* - 20/02/2010 12:09:56 PM 268 Views
Really can't see why people would get so worked up - 19/02/2010 03:57:37 PM 511 Views
No big deal.. - 19/02/2010 04:16:08 PM 597 Views
i can't see why it matters that they did. i think it's great. *NM* - 19/02/2010 05:23:44 PM 336 Views
So, what is the difference between Halal Beef and normal beef? *NM* - 19/02/2010 07:06:21 PM 265 Views
the way it is killed. *NM* - 19/02/2010 07:26:02 PM 369 Views
I wonder how teh Saudis or Iranians would react... - 19/02/2010 08:51:11 PM 573 Views
most halal foods would always qualify as kosher, i believe. - 20/02/2010 02:26:49 AM 508 Views
Nope. But it does work the other way around. *NM* - 20/02/2010 04:50:26 AM 290 Views
fair enough, then *NM* - 20/02/2010 05:56:00 AM 431 Views
yupp, kosher counts as halal, halal is not kosher though *NM* - 20/02/2010 12:55:30 PM 384 Views
So let me get this straight... - 20/02/2010 08:42:04 AM 692 Views
wow. first of all FRANCE is changing nothing - 20/02/2010 06:28:27 PM 678 Views
I think you missed his point - 20/02/2010 10:12:18 PM 573 Views
There are many answers one could give, but the most basic one is quite simple... - 20/02/2010 10:20:14 PM 692 Views
And yet having come of their own free will... - 20/02/2010 11:11:51 PM 555 Views
Way to read half a post. I am impressed. - 21/02/2010 12:10:39 AM 567 Views
It always starts small. - 21/02/2010 12:32:11 AM 539 Views
Awesome, you figured out their master plan!! - 21/02/2010 02:06:27 AM 624 Views
Like I said... - 21/02/2010 08:43:32 AM 594 Views
and really... in this case it's a private enterprise we're talking about - 21/02/2010 12:55:27 AM 542 Views
exactly. *NM* - 21/02/2010 02:06:57 AM 399 Views
Oh I know, don't get me wrong. I was trying to clarify *NM* - 21/02/2010 04:13:19 AM 318 Views
I didn't miss it, I just thought it wasn't worth noting. - 21/02/2010 02:11:14 AM 780 Views
Re: wow. first of all FRANCE is changing nothing - 20/02/2010 10:13:12 PM 744 Views
Yes, i'm sure there is no other restaurant in that whole area. - 21/02/2010 02:04:29 AM 700 Views
that's not the point. - 21/02/2010 08:46:14 AM 607 Views
dude. your 'THEY" did not do anything. - 21/02/2010 03:01:48 PM 662 Views
So if your French every restaurant should only be allowed to serve what you want served? - 22/02/2010 07:18:00 PM 536 Views
I don't think French society should be forced to consume Islamic food. - 23/02/2010 01:31:03 AM 554 Views
No one is forcing anyone to do anything. - 23/02/2010 02:47:56 AM 602 Views
Sure they are. - 23/02/2010 03:05:12 AM 587 Views
well they apparently still have 354 of that particular restaurant - 23/02/2010 03:20:07 AM 549 Views
Don't you get it? - 23/02/2010 03:51:09 AM 536 Views
Actually they're not ragheads. - 23/02/2010 03:43:14 PM 523 Views
If you have a sarcasm meter, you might want to switch it on. *NM* - 23/02/2010 05:37:41 PM 270 Views
Indeed, 354 throughout the whole of France, which actually isn't that many. - 23/02/2010 03:42:30 PM 579 Views
how many French people starved to death before McDonalds opened? - 23/02/2010 04:30:32 PM 587 Views
Millions - 23/02/2010 04:41:23 PM 536 Views
Huh. - 23/02/2010 06:10:17 PM 549 Views
They are not forced to do anything - 23/02/2010 04:41:35 PM 527 Views
So Muslims should be forced to eat French food because the French are lazy to open more restaurants? - 23/02/2010 04:43:13 AM 492 Views
well don't you see? - 23/02/2010 12:41:40 PM 583 Views
Re: well don't you see? - 23/02/2010 05:02:16 PM 541 Views
I agree with you. *NM* - 23/02/2010 05:10:53 PM 248 Views
This is meant to be an edit... - 23/02/2010 05:14:23 PM 604 Views
I agree, Bekah, but it's not like there's not a middle ground - 23/02/2010 05:25:30 PM 544 Views
It's the sheer numbers that are worrisome - 23/02/2010 06:25:17 PM 673 Views
That assumes a great deal - 23/02/2010 06:52:41 PM 670 Views
Re: That assumes a great deal - 23/02/2010 08:00:28 PM 698 Views
Very true. Test case: Lebanon - 24/02/2010 12:26:43 AM 526 Views
Really? - 24/02/2010 10:02:18 AM 533 Views
What he's referring to... - 24/02/2010 10:20:22 AM 701 Views
Oh that, that I knew with the political system - 24/02/2010 10:57:08 AM 535 Views
Re: This is meant to be an edit... - 23/02/2010 05:43:03 PM 748 Views
Well, biologically speaking, it is healthier for the gene pool. - 23/02/2010 06:55:11 PM 559 Views
"Propaganda"? Kind of exaggerating there... - 23/02/2010 07:48:39 PM 644 Views
How is it not propaganda? - 23/02/2010 08:31:12 PM 727 Views
I can certainly see your vitrol. Now I'm a bit confused though. - 23/02/2010 08:54:54 PM 571 Views
Re: I can certainly see your vitrol. Now I'm a bit confused though. - 23/02/2010 09:08:33 PM 965 Views
your view point is idealistic, I think - 23/02/2010 09:24:08 PM 844 Views
I guess one would have to see the documentary to really judge. - 23/02/2010 08:58:47 PM 669 Views
The language really isn't the problem in France. - 23/02/2010 08:15:52 PM 691 Views
I will conceed that point - 23/02/2010 08:53:26 PM 668 Views
Oh yeah, definitely, re: your point about Americans *NM* - 23/02/2010 09:00:20 PM 281 Views
Our differing opinion does not make us wrong. or that you are. - 23/02/2010 09:07:38 PM 722 Views
I'm not dismissing the problem entirely. - 23/02/2010 09:03:50 PM 679 Views
Well. I wasn't necessarily specifying France. *NM* - 23/02/2010 09:48:44 PM 261 Views
But a lot of them were already in a part of France or had been born in a part of France - 23/02/2010 05:30:24 PM 577 Views
*gasp* There are no French Muslims!! - 23/02/2010 05:36:38 PM 692 Views
Or! - 24/02/2010 10:04:44 AM 768 Views
It's funny because it's true - Algeria was administratively a part of France, iirc. *NM* - 23/02/2010 07:51:17 PM 232 Views
It does make the situation more complicated - 24/02/2010 10:30:28 AM 597 Views
Why should you have to completely change who you are? - 23/02/2010 05:35:51 PM 543 Views
Yes, of course - 23/02/2010 05:48:10 PM 533 Views
Yes, but the difference was I knew it was hyperbole - 23/02/2010 07:01:49 PM 529 Views
Re: Yes, but the difference was I knew it was hyperbole - 23/02/2010 07:38:54 PM 669 Views
So they should be treated as less because they're immigrants? - 23/02/2010 07:45:16 PM 614 Views
They're not Turks, they're mostly from France's old colonies. - 23/02/2010 08:10:25 PM 536 Views
The French didn't seem to feel the need to go native when they were in Middle Eastern countries - 23/02/2010 05:55:28 PM 768 Views
What are you refering to? - 23/02/2010 06:00:45 PM 553 Views
Brush up on your history then - 23/02/2010 06:25:53 PM 586 Views
Thank you - 23/02/2010 06:34:19 PM 535 Views
I would think that simply having McDonalds there is a greater threat to French cultrue - 23/02/2010 06:52:34 PM 668 Views
This. well stated. *NM* - 23/02/2010 07:03:47 PM 265 Views
Why thank you *NM* - 23/02/2010 11:49:22 PM 263 Views
Many? - 23/02/2010 07:40:06 AM 589 Views
sorry I thought it was a restaurant - 23/02/2010 04:41:39 AM 532 Views

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