I guess one would have to see the documentary to really judge.
Legolas Send a noteboard - 23/02/2010 08:58:47 PM
At least going by what he told me (I'll assume it's true for the sake of argument), the documentary had little to no science backing it up and was extremely one-sided. If you had replaced "Mixed-Race" with "Aryan" I think plenty of people would consider it propaganda.
But as Celia points out, the point is genetically valid, so saying "it's useful to have new blood in the gene pool" is perfectly defensible. If I thought the documentary was really telling everybody to marry a Turk or Arab and how marriages between ethnic Germans (or whatever) are bad, I might think differently about it, but I'd have to see some pretty convincing evidence before I'll buy that something that ludicrous was actually broadcasted.
Wait, so this restaurant isn't McDonalds? I thought it was. I'd would definitely call it Mimeburgers or whatever if that's the name, but everyone was calling it McDonalds, so I assumed they were indeed talking about McDonalds.
The restaurant chain is called Quick, as stated in the original article. Admittedly, it's a total rip-off of McDonalds, but it's an entirely different company all the same, a French one which according to the article is even largely owned by a state investment company (which I had no idea about). And in France and Belgium, Quick is a competitor on equal footing to McDonalds. I don't know who of the Americans started talking about McDonalds instead, but I found it funny.
And I don't blame them for wanting to limit American cultural influence either. They are France, not America Jr.
Could've fooled me, what with the raging nationalism and "let's put a French flag in every classroom!".
Yes, I'm actually quite aware of that, but I didn't want to compound the issue. I turn into a raging volcano of vitriol when talking about Elsass-Lothringen and France's fairly sucessful de-Germanization of the area, but regardless of that, I don't want to see the same happen to French culture. I want to get the other cultures out from under france's boot, yes, but I also want to see french culture remain. And I don't even like France
I really can't agree that that would be "compounding the issue". On the contrary, it's extremely relevant to the discussion at hand - France was not some monolithic culture before they had large numbers of Muslims. The European countries are very different from America because until fairly recently they had far less cultural mixture and intermingling *within one and the same location*, but in many European countries there's still been multiculturality, multilinguism etc. for centuries, by having culturally different regions within the same country.
Something interesting in this regard is what some Swiss newspapers dragged up from their country's history after the infamous minaret ban: that in the 1890s, Swiss voters passed a remarkably similar proposal, banning the construction of synagogues. I don't say that to draw misguided parallels between anti-Semitism and the immigration-sceptic movement (to use a less loaded term than "Islamophobic", but to point out that this kind of struggle and the feeling that the local identity is under threat isn't really that new.
No, I don't think everything was better in the past. One drawback of ethnic nations is the oppression of other ethnic groups. But those were pre-existing cultural groups that France conquered/oppressed, not people immigrating to France. Obviously it is wrong to make the former be French, but I don't think it is wrong to expect people voluntarily moving to France to assimilate.
I don't either, but then most of them do assimilate. In fact, one might say that a large part of the problem is that they assimilate far too well - in the wrong regards. You can say many bad things about the Islamic world, but until very recently, and as far as I know even lasting to this day, they have one remarkable characteristic: very low levels of crime, compared to similarly poor countries elsewhere. Then significant numbers of them moved to Europe, and now the largest part of the problems European countries have with these Muslim immigrants lie in the crime levels among their youth, and the way they make people feel unsafe in some neighbourhoods. Where does all that crime suddenly come from? Certainly not from Islam, and not from their home countries or home culture. The large majority of the actually devout Muslims in Western-Europe - not really as large a group as you might think - are law-obedient people, model citizens in many regards. The bad apples, the criminals, those aren't exactly big believers for the most part. Yeah, sure, you get some of the worst extremists turning to violence, but what kind of percentages are we talking about then?
I just worry about Europe. In their quest to avoid the former situation, they seem to have become lax about the latter, and it worries me. It worries me for all of Europe (France just happens to be the country we're talking about right now). But everything I've said about france I would say about the other European nations as well. Even Poland
Yes, but really, as I just said elsewhere, not every country is the same and not every situation is the same. France has a long and far from glorious history in the countries that most of their immigrants originate from, which has both positive (most immigrants know some French even before coming to France, as it's the language of the elite in Morocco and Algeria) and negative side-effects. For all that Sarkozy whines about burqas, the main issues that exist with the Muslim minorities in France are really quite unrelated to Islam or to a failure of integration (excepting one important factor which is the way the conservative gender relations in Islam, combined with "new" Western permissivity, openness and less respect for authority figures results in horribly spoiled and authority-challenging Muslim boys).
Also, there are still a few Breton Nationalists around? That makes my heart happy
Uh, well, I think there are still some people around who speak the language... I'm not sure if there's much of a separatist movement (I only know the one in Savoye gets like 0.5% of the vote there, but then Savoye doesn't have its own language and all).
French fast food chain goes halal
19/02/2010 06:34:59 AM
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...how is it "discriminatory?"
19/02/2010 06:49:24 AM
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just as a note
19/02/2010 01:06:30 PM
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(It wasn't a reference to Hinduism)
19/02/2010 05:29:40 PM
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Not necessarily prejudiced or bigots
19/02/2010 12:03:17 PM
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Not sure that works
19/02/2010 12:58:20 PM
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it's not discrimination in the slightest
19/02/2010 01:13:03 PM
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Re: Not sure that works
19/02/2010 01:44:27 PM
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Re: Not sure that works
19/02/2010 02:15:37 PM
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Re: Not sure that works
19/02/2010 02:33:30 PM
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dude. Every time anyone makes a choice, it's discrimination.
19/02/2010 02:40:18 PM
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Re: dude. Every time anyone makes a choice, it's discrimination.
19/02/2010 03:22:14 PM
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...I don't think that's a thing?
19/02/2010 05:31:52 PM
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To the contrary
19/02/2010 07:07:40 PM
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the restaurant does not have 100% halal food.
19/02/2010 07:40:52 PM
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Keep in mind that France doesn't have remotely near as many fastfood restaurants as the US...
19/02/2010 01:23:49 PM
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but what's wrong with eating halal meat?
19/02/2010 01:33:17 PM
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Nothing per se, it's largely symbolic. I'm not sure how large the changes in the menu actually are.
19/02/2010 01:42:54 PM
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Not a theologian, are we?
19/02/2010 02:06:38 PM
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but is it the jews and observant christians complaining?
19/02/2010 02:30:58 PM
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I've no clue
19/02/2010 02:46:53 PM
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why would they be serving pork at a fast food anyways?
19/02/2010 02:53:36 PM
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I checked the standard menu - other than one special burger with bacon, it's true there's no pork. *NM*
19/02/2010 02:55:44 PM
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Well normally bacon is considered pork
19/02/2010 03:07:45 PM
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Dude, it's France. They don't do English breakfasts.
19/02/2010 03:19:48 PM
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American Breakfast, the english stole it from us
19/02/2010 03:36:42 PM
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Not a theologian, are we?
19/02/2010 02:31:17 PM
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from what we discussed in Meat Sciene
19/02/2010 02:35:59 PM
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Re: Not a theologian, are we?
19/02/2010 04:03:41 PM
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Re: Not a theologian, are we?
19/02/2010 04:51:14 PM
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Re: Not a theologian, are we?
19/02/2010 04:54:26 PM
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Re: Not a theologian, are we?
19/02/2010 05:03:28 PM
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Oh, and then there's something else, though I don't know if it's a factor here...
19/02/2010 02:41:46 PM
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Re: Keep in mind that France doesn't have remotely near as many fastfood restaurants as the US...
19/02/2010 01:57:15 PM
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You think the reasons are as objective as that ?
19/02/2010 02:24:36 PM
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Simply put : Many are afraid France is being taken over by the Muslims.
19/02/2010 02:14:19 PM
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Re: Simply put : Many are afraid France is being taken over by the Muslims.
19/02/2010 05:02:18 PM
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Are you refering to something specific ?
19/02/2010 07:18:38 PM
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Re: Are you refering to something specific ?
19/02/2010 07:21:35 PM
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In a sense that's what blocked the inclusion of Turkey into the EU.
19/02/2010 07:26:51 PM
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Re: In a sense that's what blocked the inclusion of Turkey into the EU.
19/02/2010 07:30:33 PM
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The question there is what's pretext and what's actual reason.
19/02/2010 08:53:44 PM
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Re: The question there is what's pretext and what's actual reason.
19/02/2010 08:55:53 PM
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i can't see why it matters that they did. i think it's great. *NM*
19/02/2010 05:23:44 PM
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So, what is the difference between Halal Beef and normal beef? *NM*
19/02/2010 07:06:21 PM
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Call me an obvious bigot and prejudiced then. I think the way they did this is bad.
19/02/2010 07:10:40 PM
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Having two sources of meat would raise prices even more
19/02/2010 07:56:21 PM
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Not to mention the fact that anything served as halal would have to be cooked separately
19/02/2010 10:55:06 PM
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I wonder how teh Saudis or Iranians would react...
19/02/2010 08:51:11 PM
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most halal foods would always qualify as kosher, i believe.
20/02/2010 02:26:49 AM
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So let me get this straight...
20/02/2010 08:42:04 AM
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wow. first of all FRANCE is changing nothing
20/02/2010 06:28:27 PM
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I think you missed his point
20/02/2010 10:12:18 PM
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There are many answers one could give, but the most basic one is quite simple...
20/02/2010 10:20:14 PM
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And yet having come of their own free will...
20/02/2010 11:11:51 PM
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Way to read half a post. I am impressed.
21/02/2010 12:10:39 AM
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It always starts small.
21/02/2010 12:32:11 AM
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and really... in this case it's a private enterprise we're talking about
21/02/2010 12:55:27 AM
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Re: wow. first of all FRANCE is changing nothing
20/02/2010 10:13:12 PM
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Yes, i'm sure there is no other restaurant in that whole area.
21/02/2010 02:04:29 AM
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that's not the point.
21/02/2010 08:46:14 AM
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So if your French every restaurant should only be allowed to serve what you want served?
22/02/2010 07:18:00 PM
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I don't think French society should be forced to consume Islamic food.
23/02/2010 01:31:03 AM
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No one is forcing anyone to do anything.
23/02/2010 02:47:56 AM
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Sure they are.
23/02/2010 03:05:12 AM
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well they apparently still have 354 of that particular restaurant
23/02/2010 03:20:07 AM
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Don't you get it?
23/02/2010 03:51:09 AM
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Actually they're not ragheads.
23/02/2010 03:43:14 PM
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If you have a sarcasm meter, you might want to switch it on. *NM*
23/02/2010 05:37:41 PM
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Indeed, 354 throughout the whole of France, which actually isn't that many.
23/02/2010 03:42:30 PM
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So Muslims should be forced to eat French food because the French are lazy to open more restaurants?
23/02/2010 04:43:13 AM
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well don't you see?
23/02/2010 12:41:40 PM
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Re: well don't you see?
23/02/2010 05:02:16 PM
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I agree with you. *NM*
23/02/2010 05:10:53 PM
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This is meant to be an edit...
23/02/2010 05:14:23 PM
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I agree, Bekah, but it's not like there's not a middle ground
23/02/2010 05:25:30 PM
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It's the sheer numbers that are worrisome
23/02/2010 06:25:17 PM
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Very true. Test case: Lebanon
24/02/2010 12:26:43 AM
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Really?
24/02/2010 10:02:18 AM
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Re: This is meant to be an edit...
23/02/2010 05:43:03 PM
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"Propaganda"? Kind of exaggerating there...
23/02/2010 07:48:39 PM
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How is it not propaganda?
23/02/2010 08:31:12 PM
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I can certainly see your vitrol. Now I'm a bit confused though.
23/02/2010 08:54:54 PM
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Re: I can certainly see your vitrol. Now I'm a bit confused though.
23/02/2010 09:08:33 PM
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I guess one would have to see the documentary to really judge.
23/02/2010 08:58:47 PM
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The language really isn't the problem in France.
23/02/2010 08:15:52 PM
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I will conceed that point
23/02/2010 08:53:26 PM
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But a lot of them were already in a part of France or had been born in a part of France
23/02/2010 05:30:24 PM
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It's funny because it's true - Algeria was administratively a part of France, iirc. *NM*
23/02/2010 07:51:17 PM
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Why should you have to completely change who you are?
23/02/2010 05:35:51 PM
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Yes, of course
23/02/2010 05:48:10 PM
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Yes, but the difference was I knew it was hyperbole
23/02/2010 07:01:49 PM
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The French didn't seem to feel the need to go native when they were in Middle Eastern countries
23/02/2010 05:55:28 PM
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What are you refering to?
23/02/2010 06:00:45 PM
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Brush up on your history then
23/02/2010 06:25:53 PM
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Thank you
23/02/2010 06:34:19 PM
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I would think that simply having McDonalds there is a greater threat to French cultrue
23/02/2010 06:52:34 PM
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They had Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and for a while Lebanon and Syria.
23/02/2010 08:00:08 PM
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