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Re: That's utter nonsense. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 20/01/2010 01:38:37 AM
Existence and legitimacy are separate characteristics. Human beings have the mental capacity to make their own judgments of legitimacy, regardless of what the law says.
And this law is taking away that right. It is forcing people to treat the unions as legitimate, regardless of their judgments. As it is, same-sex unions DO exist, and everyone can make up their own mind as whether or not they are going to accept such partnerships. What the same-sex marriage lobby seeks to do is override the capacity for making judgments that you cite, and force people to give what they may or may not be willing to give, violating their rights to do as they believe.

I'm not talking about social norms (or what you consider to be social norms), I'm talking about legislation and government. These are not synonymous, nor even close to it.
Exactly, and where the latter diverges from the former, it is to be avoided as oppressive and unjust.

Your appeals to history, usefulness, place in society, etc. are all hallmarks of conventional moral reasoning. Treating social institutions as ends unto themselves, rather than human constructs able to be changed and improved, is fallacious.
How so? Rather, it is supported by long practice and pragmatism. Your own ideals have no basis beyond your own assertions.

The same arguments you make could be applied to inter-racial and inter-faith marriages as well, and in fact were until fairly recently, historically speaking.
What other kind of moral reasoning is there? Unless it is conventional, it has no legitimacy. Morality is not mutable or dynamic. As for those examples you cite, they still address the primary issue in marriage - equalizing the two different genders. Rules against or in favor of interracial or interfaith unions would still apply to same-sex unions, and the issues of gender do not.

The only reason you view gay marriage as a "special privilege" is because your concept of marriage is limited. You think of it as an institution uniting, specifically, a man and a woman, ideally to have children, raise a family, and perpetuate existing societal norms.
Yes, my concept IS limited, by the inherent nature of the relationship. There is no need for a leveling institution in cases where no imbalance exists.

The principled stance on marriage, in contrast to the conventional one, is that it is the legal joining of two people who are committed to each other
What makes that stance "principled" as opposed to the other? Why is YOUR preference a "principle" and mine not? As I said previously, you are only seeing through the lens of your personal preference, rather than any consistant underlying ideal. Mine is that everyone can practice as they wish, and dispose of their resources and property as they see fit, and that government has no right to outlaw OR mandate acceptance of religious practices. I have no right to tell two ass-pirates that they cannot shack up, and you have no right to make me treat their relationship as binding.

(In my opinion, even the restriction of "two" can be questioned.)
Yes, it's all about commitment, right? Let's all hear it for a commitment to indecision!

Legislation and government, at least in a principled democracy as America is supposed to have, isn't about reinforcing social norms; it's about providing citizens with equal rights and protections, and allowing them equal voices to shape their communities.
They have that. When or where has any serious attempt been made to revoke the voting rights of such people? Are saying that people will take their opinions more seriously because they are married according to the government? If anything, imposing a government-mandated acceptance of same-sex marriage will NOT change the hearts and minds of those who respect married people more, and will NOT enable homosexuals to shape the community.

As far as "the benefit of the few": in what objectionable way do you believe that legalizing gay marriage would actually privilege the minority group of homosexuals above the rest of the country? What special advantages would they gain that others lack? I just don't see it.
They will have a benefit that is meant to accomodate certain biological and societal realities that are irrelevant to homosexual unions. Most of the practices of marriage came about in an effort to equalize what human biology made uneven. No such issue exists for same-sex partners. Neither partner has superior reproductive capabilities or encumbrances and neither is better suited for economic production. For instnace, insurance for spouses was a desired benefit, because originally, only one partner was capable of supplying a couple's income. Extension of health insurance to cover spouses was simply a recognition of the biological imperative, which A. are more or less obsolete now, and B. are irrelevant in a same sex relationship.

On the other hand, granting such privileges to an institution with no background or rooted tradition merely invites abuse. If, to cite the standard excuse about sharing insurance plans, a piece of paper issued by a city bureaucrat can require an employer to provide coverage to another person, what is to prevent a scam of this nature from being perpetrated by any two people? Because same-sex marriage has no social standing, there is no social stigma inhibiting such behavior. A person who did not see same sex marriage as binding would have no qualms about taking advantage of the benefits, all while avoiding the restrictions and commitment. In addition, the dissolution of limitations currently placed on the institution, would only exacerbate such abuses. As you cite elsewhere in this post, when the gender limitation goes, the number limit is logically next. A group could band together in a so-called marriage and partake of extensive benefits, regardless of what the original intent was in offering them. To prevent such abuses, layers of bureaucracy and extensive verifications will be needed, and the normal couples for whom the benefits were originally seen as necessary will be further encumbered. Either that, or the benefits and privileges will be revoked due to costs.

You may view civil marriage as irrelevant and meaningless, but if you owned a business you would still have to give your employees' civilly-married spouses health insurance. That's "forcing" you to acknowledge their marriage just as much as legalized gay marriage would be.
And? What is your point? I'm already oppressed, so why not a little more oppression? Turn it around. By your homosexual preference position, they are already discriminated against, so why not a little more discrimination?

The religious preference you suggest is discrimination based on sexual orientation, which has almost exclusively religious roots.
Which ones? I defy you to cite the religious principle or rule that governs my position on homosexual privileges OR same-sex marriage. Coincidence is not causality.

Additionally, if you think that is the source of distaste for homosexuality (on the contrary, the most homophobic statements or reactions I have ever heard came from some of the most irreligious and sexually immoral people of my aquaintance), don't you see that ramming it down people's throats through legislation is an absurd tactic? The churches will still not marry people just because the government says so, and people who are guided by religious principles will still not accept such marriages as legitimate, and will view the participants as usurpers of whatever nebulous benefits you claim homosexuals will gain from same-sex marriage. Have you ever heard of the concept of "scorched earth?" People who are opposed to homosexual institutions on religious grounds will revoke the privileges and benefits of marriage, rather than allow them to benefit homosexuals. THAT is what people mean when they claim that same-sex marriage legislation will destroy marriage.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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I may have lost a friend over same sex marriage - 17/01/2010 08:03:26 AM 1371 Views
the problem with your friend is the "southern evangelical christian" part - 17/01/2010 09:07:02 AM 679 Views
They believe gay marriage is ongoing unrepentant sin. - 17/01/2010 12:04:58 PM 689 Views
God your a moron. - 17/01/2010 09:10:17 PM 631 Views
be nice - 18/01/2010 06:26:58 AM 542 Views
<shrug> They can believe that all that they like - 18/01/2010 08:07:28 PM 596 Views
And live accordingly. Just like everyone else. - 18/01/2010 11:10:51 PM 604 Views
Re: And live accordingly. Just like everyone else. - 20/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 556 Views
It is, I believe, hardest for the intelligent educated man. - 21/01/2010 10:29:39 AM 688 Views
You can't use logic in an irrational argument. - 17/01/2010 10:12:11 AM 581 Views
LOL... *NM* - 18/01/2010 05:21:14 AM 326 Views
You and Adam are being equally unconstructive. - 18/01/2010 06:21:45 AM 509 Views
why do you imply "constructive" is in anyway the intent? *NM* - 18/01/2010 06:32:27 AM 247 Views
*shrug* I never stopped believing in lost causes? - 18/01/2010 07:36:04 AM 498 Views
Re: You can't use logic in an irrational argument. - 18/01/2010 06:28:41 AM 636 Views
Always welcome. - 18/01/2010 07:31:27 AM 731 Views
We finally converted you - 17/01/2010 08:43:25 PM 518 Views
Not much of a friend then. Good ridance to bad friends. *NM* - 17/01/2010 08:51:02 PM 396 Views
I agree. A friend who can't respect differences of opinion is no friend at all. *NM* - 17/01/2010 09:11:33 PM 256 Views
seriously. *NM* - 17/01/2010 10:46:17 PM 216 Views
Only because such sentiment is my pet peeve...condemning exclusivity is hypocritical. *NM* - 19/01/2010 12:37:37 AM 287 Views
yeah no kidding - 18/01/2010 06:30:45 AM 508 Views
It forces other people to accept THEIR ideology that same sex unions are legitimate. - 18/01/2010 01:49:20 AM 671 Views
I would assume, then, that you don't support any government-mandated health care? - 18/01/2010 02:07:40 AM 508 Views
Correct - 18/01/2010 04:29:04 AM 591 Views
Although I disagree with the vast majority of your arguments, - 18/01/2010 08:50:09 AM 585 Views
Thank you. - 20/01/2010 01:47:34 AM 735 Views
Please tell me you have a source for that quotation. Other than me. - 21/01/2010 12:31:27 PM 594 Views
It's GK Chesterton! What the hell are you going on about? - 27/01/2010 02:41:00 AM 476 Views
Link? - 27/01/2010 09:28:22 AM 565 Views
I can't find a link to the exact quote - 27/01/2010 12:14:19 PM 681 Views
Re: Link? - 27/01/2010 01:38:36 PM 699 Views
Perhaps we should define our terms more precisely. - 15/02/2010 11:28:09 AM 1060 Views
we do not exist in a free market. - 18/01/2010 04:09:37 AM 512 Views
And that's bad. Since when has the correct response to oppression been "accept further oppression"? *NM* - 18/01/2010 04:30:44 AM 264 Views
I am simply pointing out your arguments do not apply to the present economic environment. - 18/01/2010 04:46:04 AM 467 Views
No I am not. - 19/01/2010 10:44:31 PM 591 Views
That's utter nonsense. - 18/01/2010 04:19:57 AM 548 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense. - 18/01/2010 04:41:27 AM 566 Views
civil marriages DO have a purpose. - 18/01/2010 04:49:12 AM 546 Views
Re: civil marriages DO have a purpose. - 19/01/2010 10:47:18 PM 603 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense. - 18/01/2010 07:13:54 AM 547 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense. - 19/01/2010 10:59:45 PM 521 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense. - 18/01/2010 07:15:50 AM 626 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense. - 20/01/2010 01:38:37 AM 432 Views
Are you at all surprised? - 18/01/2010 07:59:30 AM 541 Views
A truly free country means I don't have the freedom to shoot you - 18/01/2010 05:57:44 AM 623 Views
You really said nothing, right there. - 18/01/2010 08:34:33 AM 580 Views
I presume you are equally against the current set up - 18/01/2010 12:31:33 PM 620 Views
He said as much in his response to me above. *NM* - 18/01/2010 09:37:49 PM 212 Views
That's such an amusing argument - 18/01/2010 08:17:15 PM 508 Views
I'm against people with pasta based nicknames on fantasy forums *NM* - 19/01/2010 03:03:31 PM 222 Views
cannoli is a pastry *NM* - 19/01/2010 07:25:04 PM 203 Views
I have no problem with people with pastry based names, just pasta - 21/01/2010 12:28:44 AM 463 Views
I can't help but find it funny - 18/01/2010 12:51:57 PM 482 Views
So... - 18/01/2010 03:39:33 PM 612 Views
I think you missed who was the one to walk out - 18/01/2010 04:11:05 PM 505 Views
you acept your friends with their warts or you don't - 18/01/2010 06:45:13 PM 616 Views
I think you missed who was the one to walk out *NM* - 18/01/2010 08:01:25 PM 194 Views
I don't think it was that clear - 18/01/2010 10:01:32 PM 529 Views
I don't think it is all that clear yet, either - 18/01/2010 10:27:54 PM 572 Views
I wasn't taking sides - 18/01/2010 10:57:39 PM 444 Views

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