I'm trying to avoid taking doctrinal positions on gay marriage too often until I have a firmer idea on what I think that is. Scripturally, it seems to boil down to whether one thinks Pauls writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit entirely, partly, or at all, which is VERY murky, both because everything thought to have left his pen is considered canon (as opposed to the OT, where if a Prophet wanted you to think God was speaking through him he made that VERY clear) and because several of those canonical statements are that others were just Pauls opinion, not Gods command. That, and whether one thinks 1) the Holy Spirit actually provided the guidance the first Apostles asked when the issue of the Torah for Gentiles arose and 2) whether one agrees with me that when the response actually uses terms from the Torah it's using them the same way it does.

Not unless He tells us directly, which I don't expect in this world. Again, I think if God encouraged gay marriage homosexuals would be able to produce, but if you pay attention it seems the Bible contains both commands AND instructions, which aren't the same. If your drill instructor says, "Private, drop and give me 50!" that's an order; if he tells you "keep carrying your rifle like that and you'll blow off a toe" you may not get a court martial when it happens, but no one's going to feel sorry for you. I can't think of any Christian churches who'll kick you out for living off lobster, but there's a good chance you'll have a stroke before you're 50. On the other hand, murder will pretty much always be a sin. I honestly don't know; I thank God I'm not gay because, while the issue still troubles me, at least I'm not directly affected by the outcome.

Really? I thought Lawrence v. Texas did that, but I don't follow the issue closely.


Love/=sex though (and I'm pretty sure marriages still have to be consummated most places. ) I like sex. A lot. But if I wouldn't drop my girl for someone else if I couldn't get it from her anymore, because I Love her a lot more than I like sex, and the impracticality or inadvisability of sex wouldn't diminish that. Which is probably a good thing given that she's 7000 miles from here right now. Sex doesn't provide the fulfillment of Love, just enhance it, a very nice but not indispensable perk.

But once again, as long as no one but consenting adults are involved, reasonable men can differ. As with abortion, my advice to those who, like me, don't like it is this: Don't do it, and stay the out of other peoples lives, if only to encourage them to return the favor.

I wouldn't go that far, but it's between them and God, not the state or their neighbors. When the state starts dictating FROM religion it starts dictating ON religion, because it has to decide which religion (and sect) to use. That's precisely and explicitly what the Founding Fathers tried to prevent in the Constitution, both the Bill of Rights and the main document. That's why it specifically forbids federal officeholders being required to swear allegiance to any one faith, or even make their oaths of office to God rather than the general public. I wonder how Aishas friend would feel if the government was telling her to take the Beasts mark and worship him (but I don't wonder much. ) Just because an unfair and illegal law is working the way you want now doesn't make it right, or any less likely to bite you in the butt tomorrow.

You realize that statement contains a fair amount of faith, in the general sense, right? Last I heard, the search for the "faith gene" hadn't ended (and I ain't holding my breath) but it sounds like you're treating it like Newton treated gravity: A fact yet to be proven. People do it all the time, but it's so deeply ingrained it's usually unconscious; at this point, you can probably guess how many times I've plopped down in this chair to type one of these responses, but the only time I think to myself, Y'know, this thing is 99.99% empty space; there is a REMOTE possibility I could just fall through it is when we're having one of these conversations. Just a few hours ago I was sitting in physical therapy looking at the machines and wondering how much, if at all, the physical world resembles what our senses say it does. No way to be absolutely sure, because all the tests are every bit as self-referential as "proving" Christianity with Bible quotes (moreso, actually; a quote is either logical or not, regardless of source, and "2+2=4" doesn't become a lie just because Charles Manson says it. ) Faith accepts a preponderance of evidence rather than concrete proof, which is fortunate and practical because, ultimately, it's virtually impossible to absolutely PROVE anything. That's why I get on much better with agnostics than I do atheists; I can respect and sympathize with a man who says, "I don't know" but a man who says, "I know the unknowable" is a conceited zealot whatever his angle. I KNOW Christ is real for reasons similar to Pauls: Either it happened, or I'm a lunatic, but since God can't personally prove HIMSELF a negative (again, inability to do mutually exclusive things isn't a limitation on omnipotence, but on reality) that's not an option for the atheist.

Which, I believe, is a choice God regretfully allows, though you'll have a hard time convincing universalists. But either we have free will or not, and, however bad an idea it is, if one isn't free to tell God to go Cheney himself in full knowledge of what one is saying, there is no free will. Universalists will usually tell you no one would do that knowing all the facts and everyone will get an omniscient chance to repent after death; me, I figure Lucifer had all the facts and did it anyway. I don't understand it, but a basic tenet of my faith is that it IS possible.

I don't think it's inability, it's just one of the myriad examples of barriers erected between us and God by the legacy of sin in the world. You're not the first Greek to look for wisdom, y'know, but if faith were simply something you figured out on your own Grace wouldn't be a free gift to the glory of God, but your just due for accomplishments to your glory. Man can do some glorious things, but only insofar as it reflects Gods glory bestowed on us; when we go free agent... well, as you note, we aren't perfect. Because we tried to go free agent, or so the stories say.