Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Joel Send a noteboard - 18/01/2010 07:49:27 AM
It forces them to treat same-sex unions as existent, just like heterosexual marriages, and that's it.
And how is that different from what I described? Since they do not actually exist, a law like this forces people to grant privileges to a novelty institution.Existence and legitimacy are separate characteristics. Human beings have the mental capacity to make their own judgments of legitimacy, regardless of what the law says.
Many of the devout religious view any "civil" marriage, i.e. a union that was not sanctified by a church, as illegitimate, but that's their religious preference and not something they get to legislate via the government.
So? That's a normal & commonly accepted practice. Same-sex marriage is both pointless and groundless. It has no history of long use or genuine place in society. It is a special privilege invented for the benefit of the few, and attempts to legally ratify it are attempts to force every one to conform to their view. It is no different than attempting to govern according to the Bible.I'm not talking about social norms (or what you consider to be social norms), I'm talking about legislation and government. These are not synonymous, nor even close to it.
Your appeals to history, usefulness, place in society, etc. are all hallmarks of conventional moral reasoning. Treating social institutions as ends unto themselves, rather than human constructs able to be changed and improved, is fallacious. The same arguments you make could be applied to inter-racial and inter-faith marriages as well, and in fact were until fairly recently, historically speaking.
The only reason you view gay marriage as a "special privilege" is because your concept of marriage is limited. You think of it as an institution uniting, specifically, a man and a woman, ideally to have children, raise a family, and perpetuate existing societal norms. The principled stance on marriage, in contrast to the conventional one, is that it is the legal joining of two people who are committed to each other. (In my opinion, even the restriction of "two" can be questioned.)
Legislation and government, at least in a principled democracy as America is supposed to have, isn't about reinforcing social norms; it's about providing citizens with equal rights and protections, and allowing them equal voices to shape their communities.
As far as "the benefit of the few": in what objectionable way do you believe that legalizing gay marriage would actually privilege the minority group of homosexuals above the rest of the country? What special advantages would they gain that others lack? I just don't see it.
Also, your attempt to justify governing with religious preference through free-market rhetoric is just pathetic.
Your utter lack of any answer to that is worse. What religious preference was I suggesting? I am one of those people who view civil marriage as irrelevant and meaningless. I am not attempting to impose my views on anyone. If people want to claim they are married because they have a piece of paper, that is fine with me. On the other hand, same-sex marriage legislation would force other people to accept their position. THEY are the ones governing with their preference.You have no real principle to back your position, it is simply your ox that is being gored, so that determines what side you are one.
You may view civil marriage as irrelevant and meaningless, but if you owned a business you would still have to give your employees' civilly-married spouses health insurance. That's "forcing" you to acknowledge their marriage just as much as legalized gay marriage would be.
The religious preference you suggest is discrimination based on sexual orientation, which has almost exclusively religious roots.
For once, I read a response before duplicating it (I had to make sure that penultimate paragraph was there, because it makes everything he said after, "You are not wrong about your distinction between civil & religious weddings" irrelevant. ) Churches don't have to sanction civil marriages (many don't) but an employer creating a distinction between civil and religious marriages that doesn't exist in law (ultimately, religious marriage itself doesn't exist in US law, can't) is begging for a murderous discrimination suit. Whatever the spouses orientation.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 18/01/2010 at 07:50:05 AM
I may have lost a friend over same sex marriage
17/01/2010 08:03:26 AM
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the problem with your friend is the "southern evangelical christian" part
17/01/2010 09:07:02 AM
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They believe gay marriage is ongoing unrepentant sin.
17/01/2010 12:04:58 PM
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God your a moron.
17/01/2010 09:10:17 PM
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That was remarkably unconstructive.
18/01/2010 12:13:45 AM
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youll have to excuse Adam, he is a Heathen, its not his fault *NM*
18/01/2010 06:26:34 AM
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Ad hominems w/o substance are never excusable, especially in one who knows beter: They're forfeits.
18/01/2010 06:39:33 AM
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<shrug> They can believe that all that they like
18/01/2010 08:07:28 PM
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And live accordingly. Just like everyone else.
18/01/2010 11:10:51 PM
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You can't use logic in an irrational argument.
17/01/2010 10:12:11 AM
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LOL... *NM*
18/01/2010 05:21:14 AM
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You and Adam are being equally unconstructive.
18/01/2010 06:21:45 AM
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First, I'm nothing at all like Adam.
18/01/2010 06:33:54 AM
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I was similarly unclear what prompted the comments, but I only needed you to elaborate a little.
18/01/2010 07:37:43 AM
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Not much of a friend then. Good ridance to bad friends. *NM*
17/01/2010 08:51:02 PM
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I agree. A friend who can't respect differences of opinion is no friend at all. *NM*
17/01/2010 09:11:33 PM
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seriously. *NM*
17/01/2010 10:46:17 PM
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Only because such sentiment is my pet peeve...condemning exclusivity is hypocritical. *NM*
19/01/2010 12:37:37 AM
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It forces other people to accept THEIR ideology that same sex unions are legitimate.
18/01/2010 01:49:20 AM
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I would assume, then, that you don't support any government-mandated health care?
18/01/2010 02:07:40 AM
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Correct
18/01/2010 04:29:04 AM
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Although I disagree with the vast majority of your arguments,
18/01/2010 08:50:09 AM
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Thank you.
20/01/2010 01:47:34 AM
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Please tell me you have a source for that quotation. Other than me.
21/01/2010 12:31:27 PM
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It's GK Chesterton! What the hell are you going on about?
27/01/2010 02:41:00 AM
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we do not exist in a free market.
18/01/2010 04:09:37 AM
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And that's bad. Since when has the correct response to oppression been "accept further oppression"? *NM*
18/01/2010 04:30:44 AM
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I am simply pointing out your arguments do not apply to the present economic environment.
18/01/2010 04:46:04 AM
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That's utter nonsense.
18/01/2010 04:19:57 AM
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Re: That's utter nonsense.
18/01/2010 04:41:27 AM
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Re: That's utter nonsense.
18/01/2010 07:15:50 AM
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Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
18/01/2010 07:49:27 AM
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I really dont like the idea of a black person marrying a white person
18/01/2010 06:36:26 AM
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That's such an amusing argument
18/01/2010 08:17:15 PM
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And you're fairly appalling in either pretending to misunderstand free markets or in your stupidity
27/01/2010 03:00:21 AM
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I'm against people with pasta based nicknames on fantasy forums *NM*
19/01/2010 03:03:31 PM
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cannoli is a pastry *NM*
19/01/2010 07:25:04 PM
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I have no problem with people with pastry based names, just pasta
21/01/2010 12:28:44 AM
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you acept your friends with their warts or you don't
18/01/2010 06:45:13 PM
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I think you missed who was the one to walk out *NM*
18/01/2010 08:01:25 PM
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I don't think it was that clear
18/01/2010 10:01:32 PM
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