still luv ya
i knew a born-again baptist (probably holding the same beliefs as your friend) who told me the exact same thing. that it doesn't matter if you live your life according to the teachings of jesus if you never accept jesus as your personal savior blah blah blah. in other words, if you don't believe in jesus, it doesn't matter if you do good in the world or not because you'll automatically go straight to hell whether you believe in the christian afterlife or not
anyway, i find it interesting that what originally started as a diversionary issue has become such a big civil rights discussion. i have to agree with some of the analysis on the supreme court decision: whether or not the supreme court strikes down the marriage bans at this stage of the game, it will be difficult to get the nation to accept the decision because there is such strong division on the issue.
i don't understand the rationale behind the opposition except that they hate homosexuality for some reason, and legitimizing it by allowing gay marriage is basically shaking their belief structure to the core. i also think that because it's such a strongly divisive issue right now, that the opposition is going to rationalize any fringe issue to deny gay marriage and make it such a scary thing to people who might be on the fence about it....
It's a common problem with sexual immorality; which is the bigger challenge, for a thief to stop stealing, or for the adulterer to break up with his mistress of 15 years? There's more to it than just, "I'm not going to do that anymore" there's a lot of baggage involved, and a lot of continual inducement to backslide, but then, in a very real sense sin is the ultimate lethal addiction. Assuming the person actually wants to stop; otherwise, well, it's situations like this that coined the phrase "LIVING in sin" and it was almost invariably applied to heterosexuals. It's one thing to commit one sin, whether or not one repents, and quite another to be actively engaged in it on an ongoing basis for decades. I steal your car I have to deal with it once; if I sleep with your wife we sin every single time, past, present and future.
Now, as to why gay marriage is singled out when there are plenty of such examples, I think it boils down to being more visible, and visibly in the minority. People weren't any easier on Jimmy Swaggart for sleeping with a female hooker than they were on Ted Haggard (in fact, I think they were worse) but they don't have heterosexual pride parades (and it would probably be called discriminatory if we did, but that's a whole other rant. ) Same reason the Nazis went after the Jews: There were enough of them to make a good target, but not so many as to make a DANGEROUS target. Not to mention there are few things hypocrites love more than pointing out faults in others, or hate more than seeing their own faults reflected in others.
With that out of the way:
You can't live your life according to Jesus' teachings without accepting Him as personal savior, because that is one of His teachings. A rather significant one.
It's not that doing good in the world doesn't matter, it's that no amount of good will undo the evil EVERYONE commits to varying extents. Again, we're dealing with a perfect being; He doesn't grade on a curve: It's pass/fail (believe it or not, that's not always good. ) It's also not zero sum; if you were still in school and cheated on a test you couldn't get away with it by saying, "but I didn't cheat on these other five tests and got a perfect score, plus I do volunteer tutoring on the weekends. " There are no "little" sins; you're either perfect or not (we're not. ) You don't earn your way into heaven, 'cos then it's about you, and it ain't about you.
Hence that section in I Corinthians to which I keep returning: Jews seek signs and Greeks, wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews an offense and to the Greeks nonsense. Has to be that way, because the vindication isn't of Jew or Greek or you or me, but God; it's a free gift of unmerited Grace, that none should boast. Yes, that's a paraphrase, but without double checking I think it's pretty close. The Jews didn't show us the way because they're so holy, nor the Greeks because they're so smart: God showed us the way, 'cos He's God. God ALWAYS comes first; treating others as we want to be treated and being faithful stewards of His creation are the primary means, but never confuse the means with the ends.
All Christians, including me, would do well to remember that more often: Before anyone gets self-righteous, we should each remember all we've EARNED is death, but we've been GIVEN something much better, so credit where it's due. That and the Holy Spirit are what drive the true evangelist, because, quite literally, there but for the Grace of God go I. It's a problem many can never bridge with non-Christian friends, because after all the crap that's been spewed over the years, how do you connect? You don't want your friends to spend eternity in hell, however you understand the term, but you don't want to ruin a friendship over it either (which won't help them anyway. ) The sad thing is I think most people don't really need to do much more than acknowledge God and their sins and try to do better, but it's not "I want to do better to avoid hell" or "to be happier" or even "to help others" it's "to please my Father. "
That is the key difference between Christianity and other religions, and it's every bit as big as Christ as both divine and human savior. There is no "good enough" and if you steal a chocolate as a child, then go on to found a dozen orphanages you're still as screwed as Stalin unless you repent and ask forgiveness (or conversely, he's as free and clear as you if you both do so. ) Anyone who thinks that's a get out of jail free card has missed the point again: It may be free to us, but it came at the highest possible price; WE just didn't pay it. It's at once free and priceless (abracadabra. ) Rather staggering when you really think of it: Perfect being, owes us nothing (except eradication of sin) and we want nothing to do with Him--so He dies to save us.
Not saying anyone has to accept it, but that's the Christian mindset, so far as it's been given me to understand, and I think most Christians at the site will agree. Sin, in any form ( "degrees" are irrelevant; I can't commit a little sin any more than I can be a little pregnant, and filching something from someones room is as reprehensible to God as blowing up a school bus) has to be as intolerable to us as it is to God. That's not the problem here; the problem here is people thinking their own slates are clean (I've never understood it, but there is a group that seems to believe once "born again" they're literally incapable of sin; if only... ) and forget that if other Christians had treated them like they treat non-Christians they'd be on the bullet train to hell. They eagerly await the coming of a vengeful Lord to pat them on the head while their foes look on and then annihilate those foes, but, once again, it ain't about you. If it helps, I believe James and John asked Jesus if He wanted them to call down fire from heaven on the town that wouldn't let them in; He was... less than charmed by the idea. It's kind of a recurring theme: People harsh on Jesus, the disciples want to literally unleash the wrath of God, Jesus has to remind them that 1) He doesn't need their help to do that (rather the reverse) and 2) He's actually got bigger plans than mass slaughter. So I and the ban-happy are no worse (or better) than the first disciples.
I'd apologize for the length, but if you aren't used to it by now you'll never be (and this time I think it's important, though I concede it's not the first time I've preached this sermon in this community. )
She once told me that she believes I should turn to Christ if I want to save my soul, and that I wont go to heaven in her eyes even if I am a nice person because I dont except Jesus as my savior and what not.
i knew a born-again baptist (probably holding the same beliefs as your friend) who told me the exact same thing. that it doesn't matter if you live your life according to the teachings of jesus if you never accept jesus as your personal savior blah blah blah. in other words, if you don't believe in jesus, it doesn't matter if you do good in the world or not because you'll automatically go straight to hell whether you believe in the christian afterlife or not
anyway, i find it interesting that what originally started as a diversionary issue has become such a big civil rights discussion. i have to agree with some of the analysis on the supreme court decision: whether or not the supreme court strikes down the marriage bans at this stage of the game, it will be difficult to get the nation to accept the decision because there is such strong division on the issue.
i don't understand the rationale behind the opposition except that they hate homosexuality for some reason, and legitimizing it by allowing gay marriage is basically shaking their belief structure to the core. i also think that because it's such a strongly divisive issue right now, that the opposition is going to rationalize any fringe issue to deny gay marriage and make it such a scary thing to people who might be on the fence about it....
It's a common problem with sexual immorality; which is the bigger challenge, for a thief to stop stealing, or for the adulterer to break up with his mistress of 15 years? There's more to it than just, "I'm not going to do that anymore" there's a lot of baggage involved, and a lot of continual inducement to backslide, but then, in a very real sense sin is the ultimate lethal addiction. Assuming the person actually wants to stop; otherwise, well, it's situations like this that coined the phrase "LIVING in sin" and it was almost invariably applied to heterosexuals. It's one thing to commit one sin, whether or not one repents, and quite another to be actively engaged in it on an ongoing basis for decades. I steal your car I have to deal with it once; if I sleep with your wife we sin every single time, past, present and future.
Now, as to why gay marriage is singled out when there are plenty of such examples, I think it boils down to being more visible, and visibly in the minority. People weren't any easier on Jimmy Swaggart for sleeping with a female hooker than they were on Ted Haggard (in fact, I think they were worse) but they don't have heterosexual pride parades (and it would probably be called discriminatory if we did, but that's a whole other rant. ) Same reason the Nazis went after the Jews: There were enough of them to make a good target, but not so many as to make a DANGEROUS target. Not to mention there are few things hypocrites love more than pointing out faults in others, or hate more than seeing their own faults reflected in others.
With that out of the way:
You can't live your life according to Jesus' teachings without accepting Him as personal savior, because that is one of His teachings. A rather significant one.
It's not that doing good in the world doesn't matter, it's that no amount of good will undo the evil EVERYONE commits to varying extents. Again, we're dealing with a perfect being; He doesn't grade on a curve: It's pass/fail (believe it or not, that's not always good. ) It's also not zero sum; if you were still in school and cheated on a test you couldn't get away with it by saying, "but I didn't cheat on these other five tests and got a perfect score, plus I do volunteer tutoring on the weekends. " There are no "little" sins; you're either perfect or not (we're not. ) You don't earn your way into heaven, 'cos then it's about you, and it ain't about you.
Hence that section in I Corinthians to which I keep returning: Jews seek signs and Greeks, wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews an offense and to the Greeks nonsense. Has to be that way, because the vindication isn't of Jew or Greek or you or me, but God; it's a free gift of unmerited Grace, that none should boast. Yes, that's a paraphrase, but without double checking I think it's pretty close. The Jews didn't show us the way because they're so holy, nor the Greeks because they're so smart: God showed us the way, 'cos He's God. God ALWAYS comes first; treating others as we want to be treated and being faithful stewards of His creation are the primary means, but never confuse the means with the ends.
All Christians, including me, would do well to remember that more often: Before anyone gets self-righteous, we should each remember all we've EARNED is death, but we've been GIVEN something much better, so credit where it's due. That and the Holy Spirit are what drive the true evangelist, because, quite literally, there but for the Grace of God go I. It's a problem many can never bridge with non-Christian friends, because after all the crap that's been spewed over the years, how do you connect? You don't want your friends to spend eternity in hell, however you understand the term, but you don't want to ruin a friendship over it either (which won't help them anyway. ) The sad thing is I think most people don't really need to do much more than acknowledge God and their sins and try to do better, but it's not "I want to do better to avoid hell" or "to be happier" or even "to help others" it's "to please my Father. "
That is the key difference between Christianity and other religions, and it's every bit as big as Christ as both divine and human savior. There is no "good enough" and if you steal a chocolate as a child, then go on to found a dozen orphanages you're still as screwed as Stalin unless you repent and ask forgiveness (or conversely, he's as free and clear as you if you both do so. ) Anyone who thinks that's a get out of jail free card has missed the point again: It may be free to us, but it came at the highest possible price; WE just didn't pay it. It's at once free and priceless (abracadabra. ) Rather staggering when you really think of it: Perfect being, owes us nothing (except eradication of sin) and we want nothing to do with Him--so He dies to save us.
Not saying anyone has to accept it, but that's the Christian mindset, so far as it's been given me to understand, and I think most Christians at the site will agree. Sin, in any form ( "degrees" are irrelevant; I can't commit a little sin any more than I can be a little pregnant, and filching something from someones room is as reprehensible to God as blowing up a school bus) has to be as intolerable to us as it is to God. That's not the problem here; the problem here is people thinking their own slates are clean (I've never understood it, but there is a group that seems to believe once "born again" they're literally incapable of sin; if only... ) and forget that if other Christians had treated them like they treat non-Christians they'd be on the bullet train to hell. They eagerly await the coming of a vengeful Lord to pat them on the head while their foes look on and then annihilate those foes, but, once again, it ain't about you. If it helps, I believe James and John asked Jesus if He wanted them to call down fire from heaven on the town that wouldn't let them in; He was... less than charmed by the idea. It's kind of a recurring theme: People harsh on Jesus, the disciples want to literally unleash the wrath of God, Jesus has to remind them that 1) He doesn't need their help to do that (rather the reverse) and 2) He's actually got bigger plans than mass slaughter. So I and the ban-happy are no worse (or better) than the first disciples.
I'd apologize for the length, but if you aren't used to it by now you'll never be (and this time I think it's important, though I concede it's not the first time I've preached this sermon in this community. )
Aisha - formerly known as randschicka
I may have lost a friend over same sex marriage
17/01/2010 08:03:26 AM
- 1385 Views
the problem with your friend is the "southern evangelical christian" part
17/01/2010 09:07:02 AM
- 694 Views
They believe gay marriage is ongoing unrepentant sin.
17/01/2010 12:04:58 PM
- 704 Views
God your a moron.
17/01/2010 09:10:17 PM
- 644 Views
That was remarkably unconstructive.
18/01/2010 12:13:45 AM
- 517 Views
youll have to excuse Adam, he is a Heathen, its not his fault *NM*
18/01/2010 06:26:34 AM
- 252 Views
Ad hominems w/o substance are never excusable, especially in one who knows beter: They're forfeits.
18/01/2010 06:39:33 AM
- 542 Views
be nice
18/01/2010 06:26:58 AM
- 559 Views
<shrug> They can believe that all that they like
18/01/2010 08:07:28 PM
- 610 Views
And live accordingly. Just like everyone else.
18/01/2010 11:10:51 PM
- 618 Views
You can't use logic in an irrational argument.
17/01/2010 10:12:11 AM
- 595 Views
LOL... *NM*
18/01/2010 05:21:14 AM
- 332 Views
You and Adam are being equally unconstructive.
18/01/2010 06:21:45 AM
- 522 Views
First, I'm nothing at all like Adam.
18/01/2010 06:33:54 AM
- 583 Views
I was similarly unclear what prompted the comments, but I only needed you to elaborate a little.
18/01/2010 07:37:43 AM
- 678 Views
Not much of a friend then. Good ridance to bad friends. *NM*
17/01/2010 08:51:02 PM
- 404 Views
I agree. A friend who can't respect differences of opinion is no friend at all. *NM*
17/01/2010 09:11:33 PM
- 262 Views
seriously. *NM*
17/01/2010 10:46:17 PM
- 221 Views
Only because such sentiment is my pet peeve...condemning exclusivity is hypocritical. *NM*
19/01/2010 12:37:37 AM
- 291 Views
It forces other people to accept THEIR ideology that same sex unions are legitimate.
18/01/2010 01:49:20 AM
- 685 Views
I would assume, then, that you don't support any government-mandated health care?
18/01/2010 02:07:40 AM
- 522 Views
Correct
18/01/2010 04:29:04 AM
- 605 Views
Although I disagree with the vast majority of your arguments,
18/01/2010 08:50:09 AM
- 599 Views
Thank you.
20/01/2010 01:47:34 AM
- 749 Views
Please tell me you have a source for that quotation. Other than me.
21/01/2010 12:31:27 PM
- 609 Views
It's GK Chesterton! What the hell are you going on about?
27/01/2010 02:41:00 AM
- 488 Views
we do not exist in a free market.
18/01/2010 04:09:37 AM
- 528 Views
And that's bad. Since when has the correct response to oppression been "accept further oppression"? *NM*
18/01/2010 04:30:44 AM
- 271 Views
I am simply pointing out your arguments do not apply to the present economic environment.
18/01/2010 04:46:04 AM
- 483 Views
That's utter nonsense.
18/01/2010 04:19:57 AM
- 561 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense.
18/01/2010 04:41:27 AM
- 578 Views
Re: That's utter nonsense.
18/01/2010 07:15:50 AM
- 640 Views
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
18/01/2010 07:49:27 AM
- 557 Views
I really dont like the idea of a black person marrying a white person
18/01/2010 06:36:26 AM
- 631 Views
That's such an amusing argument
18/01/2010 08:17:15 PM
- 522 Views
And you're fairly appalling in either pretending to misunderstand free markets or in your stupidity
27/01/2010 03:00:21 AM
- 714 Views
I'm against people with pasta based nicknames on fantasy forums *NM*
19/01/2010 03:03:31 PM
- 227 Views
cannoli is a pastry *NM*
19/01/2010 07:25:04 PM
- 207 Views
I have no problem with people with pastry based names, just pasta
21/01/2010 12:28:44 AM
- 477 Views
you acept your friends with their warts or you don't
18/01/2010 06:45:13 PM
- 629 Views
I think you missed who was the one to walk out *NM*
18/01/2010 08:01:25 PM
- 199 Views
I don't think it was that clear
18/01/2010 10:01:32 PM
- 544 Views