I had to think about this for a few days, but I've now worked out my answer.
Tim Send a noteboard - 16/01/2010 01:59:25 PM
I define racism, sexism, etc as an irrational and strong bias against a given group, I do not believe individual issues can be defined that way, even if it many of the people who might be advantaged or disadvantaged by the result happen to be members of a specific group, and many of the people who hate them happen to be on one side of the issue.
It seems as though you see racism or non-racism as a binary category: you're either 100% racist, or you aren't at all. Like being married or not, alive or dead, male or female*. I think, however, that what racism really is consists of views. If you say someone is racist, what that actually means is that they hold racist views.
Now, I think one of the main problems with the media today, especially in the US, is that they don't like to admit nuanced viewpoints. You're either a conservative, through-and-through, or you're a liberal, through-and-through. They have trouble with people who are fiscally conservative and socially liberal, even though they are quite a lot of those. It's as though anyone who is against big government must also be against abortion and gay marriage.
So, if a person holds one racist view and four non-racist views, it's fair to say that their view on that issue is a racist view without it meaning that the person is good recruiting material for the KKK. In my earlier posts, all I was doing was claiming that "AAE is bad English and people shouldn't speak it" is a racist view. I wasn't claiming that all who hold such a view are 100% racist, or trying to slap a label saying "This person is a racist" on such people. However, to someone who thinks of racism in all-or-nothing terms, it would appear that I was making that far more radical claim.
*Yes, there are a very few hermaphrodites, XY females etc, but you know what I'm getting at .
By your logic, many people having decided that abortion is a women's issue, all pro-lifers are sexist on that issue, which is likely to really surprise a lot of women who are pro-life. Ditto, anyone who thinks we need to really lock down our borders against illegal immigrants is not automatically a racist, just because most people who dislike hispanics happen to agree with them. To raise an absurd case, because I always feel they clarify things so well, I think it's hard to accuse people of sexism for not thinking the NFL should let women on to teams. You're not a bigot if you're view is not irrational. You have to be totally living in Fantasia to think there are an equal number of women as men who can compete at pro football.
To pick holes in your particular examples:
1. There's nothing necessarily sexist about being pro-life. The fact that abortion affects women and not men isn't our fault – it's biology's fault. I think most pro-lifers (and definitely the pro-life women you mention) would agree that the issue isn't really about women, nor indeed men – it's about babies.
2. It's not racist to be in favour of stricter immigration policies, unless you think people of certain races should be able to get in more easily than others. A "tighten our borders" view could arise from valid concerns about overpopulation. A "keep those dirty Hispanics out" view is very different.
Your either racist, sexist, etc or you aren't. If Hitler said 'well, I think jews and germans tend to be equally good carpenters' I can't see there being any logic to saying 'Hitler isn't racist on that issue' nor would I think someone was racist on that issue if it turned out that pieces of woodworking from germany typically went for higher prices than Israel.
If Hitler honestly said that, then he wouldn't be racist on that issue. The reason your example is absurd is not because racism is an all-or-nothing status like being married or not – it's because ability at carpentry isn't a very important issue in comparison with the many other issues on which Hitler was racist.
I think long before you label people who dislike AAE as racist, even if 'just on that issue', you might want to consider that they might be dumb, snobbish, or wrong - especially since being labeled 'racist' the days is about as bad as being labeled 'rapist', dumb, snobbish, or incorrect are basically socially acceptable foibles. I know a lot of black people in my own area, the rural midwest, who sneer at AAE, and I'm sure their reason is the obvious one, us rural midwesterners know our version of english is simply the superior one. I'm pretty sure blacks in rural ohio who dislike ebonics probably deserve to be titled as snobbish, regiocentric (if that's a word?), or maybe dumb before we call them racist, even if it's just 'racist on that issue'
As I said above, what you suggest is exactly what I intended. I think such people hold one racist view due to their ignorance about language in general and AAE in particular, even though all their other views may be non-racist. I apologise if I wasn't clear enough – I hope, however, that this discussion has cleared up any misunderstanding based on different underlying assumptions which I didn't realise we were making.
I hope we see a bit more eye-to-eye now.
Vigilantibus non dormientibus jura subveniunt.
—Nous disons en allemand : le guerre, le mort, le lune, alors que 'soleil' et 'amour' sont du sexe féminin : la soleil, la amour. La vie est neutre.
—La vie ? Neutre ? C'est très joli, et surtout très logique.
—Nous disons en allemand : le guerre, le mort, le lune, alors que 'soleil' et 'amour' sont du sexe féminin : la soleil, la amour. La vie est neutre.
—La vie ? Neutre ? C'est très joli, et surtout très logique.
So what EXACTLY is the problem with Reid's comments?
12/01/2010 04:11:56 AM
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it wasn't just that he commented on the lack of "dialect"
12/01/2010 04:16:27 AM
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Regardless of that, I don't see the ability to use dialect as a racist statement.
12/01/2010 04:32:07 AM
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when was the last time you heard a white person speaking ebonics?
12/01/2010 01:41:24 PM
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A week or so ago.
12/01/2010 08:09:09 PM
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Isn't that the definition of a wigger? A white person who speaks/acts like a black person?
12/01/2010 09:49:34 PM
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And the fact that Wigger = White N****r isn't racist at all! *NM*
12/01/2010 10:33:04 PM
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I wasn't using the term seriously 9_9
13/01/2010 04:26:20 AM
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Mocking white people for "acting like black people" by modifying a slur on blacks... hm... *NM*
13/01/2010 06:50:46 AM
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You know, what IS a good term for black people these days?
12/01/2010 04:36:33 AM
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I just use "black"
12/01/2010 02:27:16 PM
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Why is it OK to discriminate on the grounds of language but not race?
12/01/2010 08:23:21 AM
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Please tell me you were joking... *NM*
12/01/2010 01:29:37 PM
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Your AAE is a language the way that Pig Latin is a language.
12/01/2010 06:38:35 PM
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You know, arguing what a language is with a linguist is pretty much set up for failure *NM*
12/01/2010 07:58:42 PM
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I recall having a similar discussion on this very topic a few years ago with Tim.
12/01/2010 08:10:53 PM
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Re: I recall having a similar discussion on this very topic a few years ago with Tim.
12/01/2010 09:06:01 PM
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Maybe, but having knowledge of the topic wasn't one of my advantages in that argument. *NM*
13/01/2010 03:36:31 AM
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I don't even know where to begin.
12/01/2010 09:43:21 PM
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That third point is going a bit far.
12/01/2010 10:06:08 PM
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You're right, I was conflating two separate points.
12/01/2010 10:14:48 PM
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Well, it still only applies...
12/01/2010 10:24:08 PM
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You ascribe too much intelligence to the average American racist .
12/01/2010 10:30:39 PM
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You're guessing at people's motives and making what appear to be broad, unsupported assertions
12/01/2010 11:04:47 PM
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I don't mean they're racist in all respects.
13/01/2010 06:52:20 AM
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Your defintion of racism and sexism seems to massively differ from mine
13/01/2010 03:37:46 PM
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I had to think about this for a few days, but I've now worked out my answer.
16/01/2010 01:59:25 PM
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I had no problems with them. And I don't even like the guy and hope he loses his reelection battle.
12/01/2010 03:32:42 PM
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Who seriously uses the term "Negro dialect" anymore?
13/01/2010 02:00:15 AM
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It's not the word "Negro" in "Magic Negro" that's the most offensive part. *NM*
13/01/2010 09:16:20 AM
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