Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
Tom Send a noteboard - 23/11/2009 02:56:19 PM
Legal:
1. Evidentiary issues may make it difficult to secure convictions for all crimes alleged, whereas a military court can take into account evidence that a civilian court cannot.
2. Procedures followed can lead to major questions regarding whether or not a trial is proper, whether for failure to properly administer Miranda rights and in a timely manner or for other reasons.
Moral:
1. The cost is exhorbitant
2. It provides the defendants a forum to criticize the US and make their jihadi statements
3. It will be a media circus regardless of media access
Reid, Padilla and Moussaoui were all, unlike KSM, arrested in the United States (Reid and Padilla upon arrival). This is a vital distinction from KSM.
You spoke, in your other response, about how great the Federal court system is at making sure terrorists don't go free and also showed you are labouring under the illusion that my understanding of procedural flaws leading to acquittal is based on watching prime time television.
If Miranda rights are not important as you claim to "know from studying terrorism law" (once again, what law school did you study this at?) then WHY did the FBI start reading Miranda rights to combatants captured in Afghanistan earlier this year?
The answer is clear. Testimonial evidence obtained prior to or without a Miranda warning will be thrown out in Federal court. While we're speaking about Reid, Padilla and Moussaoui, let's go through the trials of them:
REID
Assisted the prosecution greatly with his guilty plea and behaviour in court generally. If only every case were this easy.
PADILLA
Many of the counts against him were summarily dismissed for lack of evidence and only reinstated on appeal by prosecutors. Ultimately, he received 17 years, mostly for "aiding terrorists". The case is STILL ON APPEAL due to the harshness of the sentencing for a conspiracy crime.
MOUSSAOUI
The trial was drawn out for five years due to his refusal to plead either way to the crime. The judge refused to allow the death penalty and that issue had to be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. Moussaoui appears to have snapped at some point, however, and started doing everything he could to incriminate himself with crazy theories, thus leading to life in prison.
With the exception of Reid's trial, these trials were expensive and damaged the fabric of the US Justice System. Military tribunals would be better. The problem that the Bush Administration had was that it didn't want to give the defendants ANY Constitutional protections. I'm sure the Obama Administration could devise a fully Constitutional system of military tribunals to keep the proceedings out of the media, preserve the ability to use evidence not available in civilian trials and keep costs down.
1. Evidentiary issues may make it difficult to secure convictions for all crimes alleged, whereas a military court can take into account evidence that a civilian court cannot.
2. Procedures followed can lead to major questions regarding whether or not a trial is proper, whether for failure to properly administer Miranda rights and in a timely manner or for other reasons.
Moral:
1. The cost is exhorbitant
2. It provides the defendants a forum to criticize the US and make their jihadi statements
3. It will be a media circus regardless of media access
Reid, Padilla and Moussaoui were all, unlike KSM, arrested in the United States (Reid and Padilla upon arrival). This is a vital distinction from KSM.
You spoke, in your other response, about how great the Federal court system is at making sure terrorists don't go free and also showed you are labouring under the illusion that my understanding of procedural flaws leading to acquittal is based on watching prime time television.
If Miranda rights are not important as you claim to "know from studying terrorism law" (once again, what law school did you study this at?) then WHY did the FBI start reading Miranda rights to combatants captured in Afghanistan earlier this year?
The answer is clear. Testimonial evidence obtained prior to or without a Miranda warning will be thrown out in Federal court. While we're speaking about Reid, Padilla and Moussaoui, let's go through the trials of them:
REID
Assisted the prosecution greatly with his guilty plea and behaviour in court generally. If only every case were this easy.
PADILLA
Many of the counts against him were summarily dismissed for lack of evidence and only reinstated on appeal by prosecutors. Ultimately, he received 17 years, mostly for "aiding terrorists". The case is STILL ON APPEAL due to the harshness of the sentencing for a conspiracy crime.
MOUSSAOUI
The trial was drawn out for five years due to his refusal to plead either way to the crime. The judge refused to allow the death penalty and that issue had to be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. Moussaoui appears to have snapped at some point, however, and started doing everything he could to incriminate himself with crazy theories, thus leading to life in prison.
With the exception of Reid's trial, these trials were expensive and damaged the fabric of the US Justice System. Military tribunals would be better. The problem that the Bush Administration had was that it didn't want to give the defendants ANY Constitutional protections. I'm sure the Obama Administration could devise a fully Constitutional system of military tribunals to keep the proceedings out of the media, preserve the ability to use evidence not available in civilian trials and keep costs down.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
No need to interrogate Osama bin Laden?
20/11/2009 12:48:27 AM
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oO uhm, what?
20/11/2009 12:54:13 AM
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If they're tried INSIDE the US, then yes, they are entitled to due process.
20/11/2009 01:44:08 AM
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Yeah, a lot of people were fuzzy on that till this started.
20/11/2009 09:30:39 AM
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on the other hand, we're more than willing to take them out back with a confession.
20/11/2009 06:34:12 PM
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New York is now asking for $75 MILLION for the KSM trial
20/11/2009 01:43:26 AM
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If this trial were being held in any other country
20/11/2009 01:56:07 AM
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It's a terrible precedent no matter how you look at it.
20/11/2009 02:13:46 AM
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It IS a terrible precdent, hence you and others are citing it 65 years after WWII ended.
20/11/2009 09:23:45 AM
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Spare me the bullshit.
20/11/2009 01:57:16 PM
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I will if you will.
20/11/2009 02:55:30 PM
- 534 Views
No, you won't. You never will.
20/11/2009 06:14:30 PM
- 424 Views
You're putting your cart before your horse is the problem.
23/11/2009 05:40:46 AM
- 516 Views
You don't think this is a military struggle? Wow.
20/11/2009 02:52:26 PM
- 475 Views
Allow me to point out...
20/11/2009 03:02:33 PM
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That's the thing, they aren't a terrorist group
20/11/2009 04:54:31 PM
- 496 Views
It would help if you would offer any argument in favour of your stance.
20/11/2009 08:43:08 PM
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I only use the word army cause I can't think of a better one
21/11/2009 04:32:01 AM
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Military struggles involve militaries.
20/11/2009 03:23:14 PM
- 617 Views
Once again, bullshit.
20/11/2009 06:09:31 PM
- 580 Views
This is wrong
20/11/2009 07:41:35 PM
- 484 Views
We're a long way from the shore of Tripoli.
23/11/2009 05:59:19 AM
- 536 Views
Your little diatribe in the beginning only makes me glad...
22/11/2009 05:32:57 AM
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I understand your "jihadist narrative"
22/11/2009 06:36:41 PM
- 583 Views
No you don't
22/11/2009 11:16:18 PM
- 519 Views
Oh, so you know better than Army attorneys about Miranda rights?
22/11/2009 11:52:00 PM
- 560 Views
I can explain it to you right now if you want?
23/11/2009 08:21:48 AM
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Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
23/11/2009 02:56:19 PM
- 526 Views
Re: Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
24/11/2009 04:55:12 AM
- 661 Views
I'm glad that you will never be in a position where a decision you make can affect my life.
23/11/2009 12:27:35 AM
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Actually people of my thinking are already making decisions that affect your life.
23/11/2009 08:29:24 AM
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Please explain to me how military tribunals compromise my principles?
24/11/2009 02:54:18 AM
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And your little hyperbolic rant would make more sense if it were grounded in reality.
22/11/2009 11:47:17 PM
- 450 Views
Looks like we'll get a Not Guilty plea, and a defense focusing on condeming US foreign policy
23/11/2009 12:36:47 AM
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They'll publicly accuse us of tyranny and brutality in front of a jury and without our censorship.
23/11/2009 08:27:13 AM
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My main objection is the awful precedent set by trying prisoners of war here in America.
24/11/2009 02:57:13 AM
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"My main objection is the awful precedent set by trying prisoners of war here in America. "
24/11/2009 06:57:34 AM
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We've had Mohammed in custody for over 6 years...
23/11/2009 07:56:49 AM
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I've already responded to your absurd statements, but let me reiterate a few here
23/11/2009 02:59:09 PM
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And I've responded to yours
24/11/2009 04:57:58 AM
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It's not, at least for me, that we feel the civilian courts are inadequate
24/11/2009 05:28:51 AM
- 475 Views
Good analysis of the situation.
23/11/2009 08:17:01 AM
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It isn't about sending a message. It's about horrible war fighting strategy.
24/11/2009 02:59:31 AM
- 543 Views
No. It's about not using a horribly ineffective strategy just to send a message to terrorists.
24/11/2009 09:29:06 AM
- 463 Views
enemy combatants and terrorists
23/11/2009 08:03:25 PM
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They're not different because from the Third World, but because terrorists.
24/11/2009 08:09:13 AM
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