Aaaah, I see; it's a question of who's the master, is it?
Joel Send a noteboard - 23/11/2009 07:47:43 AM
Your definitions of "war" and "military" are outdated and unrealistic. The war against al Qaeda and the Taliban is a proper war, being conducted by our armed forces.
How kind of you to share that determination. You know I hold your linguistic skill and knowledge in the highest regard, but that doesn't make it the "proper" basis for American foreign policy. Particularly given my belief you're incorrect in this case; they have thugs, criminals, thieves and murderers we refer to as "enemy combatants" because in 2005 Congress changed the DoD Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms definition of "enemy combatant" to, "any person in an armed conflict who could be properly detained under the laws and customs of war, " in 2008 they changed it again:
"( 8 ) The term 'enemy combatant' has historically referred to all of the citizens of a state with which the Nation is at war, and who are members of the armed force of that enemy state. Enemy combatants in the present conflict, however, come from many nations, wear no uniforms, and use unconventional weapons. Enemy combatants in the war on terrorism are not defined by simple, readily apparent criteria, such as citizenship or military uniform. And the power to name a citizen as an 'enemy combatant' is therefore extraordinarily broad, "
in the interim Bush changed it to "an individual who was part of or supporting the Taliban or al Qaida forces, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners. This includes any person who committed a belligerent act or has directly supported hostilities in aid of enemy armed forces. "
Finally, disgusted with all this and having to arbitrate it, US District Court Judge Richard J. Leon ruled on October 27th of last year it was the 2004 definition in rules of Combatant Status Review Tribunals:
"'Enemy combatant' shall mean an individual who was part of or supporting Taliban or al Qaeda forces, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners. This includes any person who has committed belligerent act or has directly supported hostilities in aid of enemy combat forces. "
I'll give you credit for consistency the Bush administration lacked, but apart from that, if I won't let them get away with redefining words to suit them, why would I overlook it from you?
The combatants rightly fall under the category of "unlawful combatants" for purposes of the Geneva Conventions. This means that, generally, they may be tried by military tribunals and sentenced unless they are on US soil when captured, though it may be that some such individuals could be tried in military tribunals nonetheless (if there were evidence they acted as spies or saboteurs, for example).
As you may have noticed above, the previous administration dismissed the Geneva definition of "enemy combatant" (to which we are bound under treaty) and replaced it with its own. Several times, in fact. Depending on which administration official was asked when an enemy combatant could be any member of a hostile armed force, strictly any member of Al Qaeda or, the second definition (my personal favorite) it could be expanded beyond the "traditional" meaning with no attempt to devise a new one nor state its limits.
Put the politics, the bloodshed and our past differences over them aside for a moment and really think about that:
Congress explicitly expanded "enemy combatant" far beyond its original meaning without bothering to define the new limits. It could literally be ANYONE; the revised definition tells you whom it's NOT (solely) but not whom it IS (entirely. ) The technical term is "blank check, " and while always troubling when applied to government, it's alarming when applied to government detaining people without charge, counsel or trial, then bringing them before a military tribunal where they can't see the evidence against them nor confront their accusers, even if it means their execution.
Incidentally, the current DoD Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms definition has been AGAIN altered to "In general, a person engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners during an armed conflict. Also called EC. "
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/doddict/data/e/18084.html
So the ten year old martyr with a bomb attached is an enemy combatant--but so is the uniformed fighter pilot, the soldiers marching in ranks; everyone. It's a neat bit of legalistic linguistic legerdemain: We've gone from asserting terrorists aren't POWs because they aren't soldiers but rather enemy combatants, to asserting there are NO POWs because they're ALL enemy combatants and we can do with them as we please, whatever treaties we've signed.
The only issue, from a Constitutional standpoint, is whether or not they had rights which were violated. The Supreme Court ruled, in Boumediene v. Bush, that they had a right to make habeas corpus petitions. This does not translate into an automatic right to a trial in Federal Court, however. It merely states that the 2006 law, as written, did not extend those rights or make a valid suspension under current law.
The proper venue is a military tribunal and the proper outcome is summary execution. None of this violates the Constitution.
The proper venue is a military tribunal and the proper outcome is summary execution. None of this violates the Constitution.
Ah, yes, the Boumediene case. Technically what you say is true, but the specific right in question is habeas, which, as Wikipedia paraphrases it, grants access to US courts. It desperately needed doing and still does, for, as Wikipedia quotes the law,
"Section 950q. Principals:
"Any person is punishable as a principal under this chapter who commits an offense punishable by this chapter, or aids, abets, counsels, commands, or procures its commission. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_2006#MCA_as_an_unconstitutional_suspension_of_habeas_corpus
Now the prison guard, the head of state, even the taxpayer who funds a hostile nations military is subject to the law. Anyone who's provided any aid of any kind or degree. Note the absence of any exemption of US citizens. So, if you've ever stated terrorist action was right in anyway, you've counseled it and are subject to Gitmo detention until your trial; mentioning the Bill of Rights won't get you anything but a rifle butt to the face.
You have three choices:
1) Demonstrate the words mean other than they clearly and precisely state,
2) Accept it's OK for US citizens to be sent to military tribunals (if ever charged, which they needn't be to be detained) and possibly execution for any favorable statement about a terrorist or
3) Change your position.
I do have a preference, but the choice isn't mine, and I wouldn't take it for you if I could, due to an unfortunate sentimentality when it comes to thinks like freedom and democracy. Oh, and my country. If you wish to tell me once more why we must destroy America to save her, that's your prerogative, but it's also the most helpful thing anyone could do for terrorists, and will receive no response. Please understand: This is not "Why do you hate America?" but "Look, really LOOK, at what's being done to America!"
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
No need to interrogate Osama bin Laden?
20/11/2009 12:48:27 AM
- 1061 Views
oO uhm, what?
20/11/2009 12:54:13 AM
- 544 Views
If they're tried INSIDE the US, then yes, they are entitled to due process.
20/11/2009 01:44:08 AM
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Yeah, a lot of people were fuzzy on that till this started.
20/11/2009 09:30:39 AM
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on the other hand, we're more than willing to take them out back with a confession.
20/11/2009 06:34:12 PM
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New York is now asking for $75 MILLION for the KSM trial
20/11/2009 01:43:26 AM
- 494 Views
If this trial were being held in any other country
20/11/2009 01:56:07 AM
- 518 Views
It's a terrible precedent no matter how you look at it.
20/11/2009 02:13:46 AM
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It IS a terrible precdent, hence you and others are citing it 65 years after WWII ended.
20/11/2009 09:23:45 AM
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Spare me the bullshit.
20/11/2009 01:57:16 PM
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I will if you will.
20/11/2009 02:55:30 PM
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No, you won't. You never will.
20/11/2009 06:14:30 PM
- 424 Views
You're putting your cart before your horse is the problem.
23/11/2009 05:40:46 AM
- 516 Views
You don't think this is a military struggle? Wow.
20/11/2009 02:52:26 PM
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Allow me to point out...
20/11/2009 03:02:33 PM
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That's the thing, they aren't a terrorist group
20/11/2009 04:54:31 PM
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It would help if you would offer any argument in favour of your stance.
20/11/2009 08:43:08 PM
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I only use the word army cause I can't think of a better one
21/11/2009 04:32:01 AM
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Military struggles involve militaries.
20/11/2009 03:23:14 PM
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Once again, bullshit.
20/11/2009 06:09:31 PM
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Aaaah, I see; it's a question of who's the master, is it?
23/11/2009 07:47:43 AM
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This is wrong
20/11/2009 07:41:35 PM
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We're a long way from the shore of Tripoli.
23/11/2009 05:59:19 AM
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Your little diatribe in the beginning only makes me glad...
22/11/2009 05:32:57 AM
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I understand your "jihadist narrative"
22/11/2009 06:36:41 PM
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No you don't
22/11/2009 11:16:18 PM
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Oh, so you know better than Army attorneys about Miranda rights?
22/11/2009 11:52:00 PM
- 560 Views
I can explain it to you right now if you want?
23/11/2009 08:21:48 AM
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Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
23/11/2009 02:56:19 PM
- 525 Views
Re: Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
24/11/2009 04:55:12 AM
- 661 Views
I'm glad that you will never be in a position where a decision you make can affect my life.
23/11/2009 12:27:35 AM
- 422 Views
Actually people of my thinking are already making decisions that affect your life.
23/11/2009 08:29:24 AM
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Please explain to me how military tribunals compromise my principles?
24/11/2009 02:54:18 AM
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And your little hyperbolic rant would make more sense if it were grounded in reality.
22/11/2009 11:47:17 PM
- 450 Views
Looks like we'll get a Not Guilty plea, and a defense focusing on condeming US foreign policy
23/11/2009 12:36:47 AM
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They'll publicly accuse us of tyranny and brutality in front of a jury and without our censorship.
23/11/2009 08:27:13 AM
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My main objection is the awful precedent set by trying prisoners of war here in America.
24/11/2009 02:57:13 AM
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"My main objection is the awful precedent set by trying prisoners of war here in America. "
24/11/2009 06:57:34 AM
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We've had Mohammed in custody for over 6 years...
23/11/2009 07:56:49 AM
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I've already responded to your absurd statements, but let me reiterate a few here
23/11/2009 02:59:09 PM
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And I've responded to yours
24/11/2009 04:57:58 AM
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It's not, at least for me, that we feel the civilian courts are inadequate
24/11/2009 05:28:51 AM
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Good analysis of the situation.
23/11/2009 08:17:01 AM
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It isn't about sending a message. It's about horrible war fighting strategy.
24/11/2009 02:59:31 AM
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No. It's about not using a horribly ineffective strategy just to send a message to terrorists.
24/11/2009 09:29:06 AM
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enemy combatants and terrorists
23/11/2009 08:03:25 PM
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They're not different because from the Third World, but because terrorists.
24/11/2009 08:09:13 AM
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