Active Users:1115 Time:22/11/2024 03:03:21 PM
Cap and trade is an attempt to use the power of the free market - you'd think you'd appreciate that. Legolas Send a noteboard - 14/10/2009 10:24:46 PM
The problem with most of the proposals that have been made in the name of "fighting global warming" are proposals that PENALIZE most people for using hydrocarbons at a time when the renewable, clean energy is still not available for most. "Cap and trade" and forcing businesses to be "carbon neutral" by buying some fictitious credits simply increases the cost of everything without showing how it is going to lead to affordable renewable energy.

"Carbon neutral" is of course for most businesses a complete fiction for the near future, but then I don't see anyone trying to force them to be. Cap and trade is a much better system, thanks to the "trade" part, than just the "cap" without the trade, because thanks to the free market, the idea is that companies who can reduce emissions in the cheapest way will do so and sell their permits to those who would face much higher costs to reduce their own permits. Then gradually decrease the amount of permits available, so that emissions are reduced further, but still the free market and the tradability of the permits ensures that the emissions are reduced there where the marginal costs of doing so are the lowest.

Whether those permits are handed out to companies ("grandfathered";) or sold by auction doesn't actually make much of a difference, except for starting companies that are disadvantaged in the case of handouts, which after all have to be based on some kind of estimation of size / current emissions.
How can a company be "carbon neutral" if it has an on-site power plant and it's making, let's say, $10 million a year in revenue before taxes? We're going to make the company build a solar generator for about $200 million? That's prohibitively expensive and, oh, by the way, that situation is fairly common and NOT hypothetical, and those numbers are actual numbers.

Unless you have any indications that any company is being, or in the near future will be, forced to be carbon neutral, this is just a pointless strawman. And see above about the trading enhancing efficiency by letting the companies that can reduce their emissions the cheapest, do most of the reducing.
"Cap and trade" for a company of that size is going to therefore simply mean an increased cost of doing business in America. The company can either lay people off or outsource to a less expensive nation like Indonesia or China. For a company of 200-300 employees, that's going to mean most likely about 1000 people depending on the facility when families are added in are going to lose their source of sustenance.

Cap and trade is specifically designed to increase their cost by far less than any other system that causes the same reduction in emissions would. Therefore I'd say you're misdirecting your argument at "cap and trade" when you should be complaining about the too small number of permits, or, equivalently, too ambitious emission reduction targets.
Try telling the tens of thousands of American workers and their families who will be out of a job in an already steep recession that it's better to "pay up front" for a global warming issue that may, just MAY, be radically overstated.

That's of course the core argument, yeah... which Dannymac did indeed gloss over in his post.
Reply to message
Oh...by the way...we may have been wrong about that whole "Global Warming" thing - 14/10/2009 03:23:53 PM 1208 Views
This was posted on 10.10.09 by Trzkaska2000. 138 views. 15 replies. - 14/10/2009 03:32:52 PM 419 Views
Your point being...? *NM* - 14/10/2009 03:53:56 PM 178 Views
That your post is repetitive. - 14/10/2009 05:33:05 PM 376 Views
I didn't see Traszka's post.. - 14/10/2009 06:34:05 PM 392 Views
Within a decade, the North Pole will be ice-free during the summer - 14/10/2009 03:35:31 PM 511 Views
what were the odds that they would have found anything else? - 14/10/2009 03:58:49 PM 414 Views
Re: Oh...by the way...we may have been wrong about that whole "Global Warming" thing - 14/10/2009 04:36:57 PM 424 Views
I registered it as a bug - 14/10/2009 04:40:20 PM 355 Views
I think it's been registered as a bug about 6 times now. *NM* - 14/10/2009 05:52:04 PM 175 Views
I personally did it four times. *NM* - 14/10/2009 11:29:53 PM 203 Views
Possible Consequences of taking global warming seriously... - 14/10/2009 04:37:32 PM 442 Views
Increased cost for everyone - 14/10/2009 04:42:07 PM 384 Views
Increased costs? - 14/10/2009 05:11:11 PM 429 Views
You misunderstand my position. - 14/10/2009 05:23:29 PM 419 Views
greed - 14/10/2009 06:45:35 PM 365 Views
That's not how things work. - 14/10/2009 06:50:27 PM 346 Views
Then lets change the way things work. Not as if capitalism is required by the US constition. - 15/10/2009 07:04:51 PM 331 Views
Good luck with that. - 15/10/2009 07:18:17 PM 439 Views
Welcome to Communism! - 14/10/2009 09:45:02 PM 341 Views
communism is a system of government. SOCIALISM is an economic system - 15/10/2009 07:01:16 PM 361 Views
I'm Canadian, actually. - 23/10/2009 11:08:08 PM 323 Views
Cap and trade is an attempt to use the power of the free market - you'd think you'd appreciate that. - 14/10/2009 10:24:46 PM 430 Views
it's about the science, for me. - 14/10/2009 04:46:09 PM 375 Views
Other Possible Consequences of taking global warming seriously... - 14/10/2009 06:33:38 PM 363 Views
+1 - 14/10/2009 06:46:11 PM 360 Views
So you decided to ignore my response? - 14/10/2009 07:02:01 PM 376 Views
No, I just think it's gonna pay off in the long run - 14/10/2009 07:21:04 PM 377 Views
+ 1 I agree with you completely in here. - 14/10/2009 08:19:45 PM 355 Views
So, I guess you are now a Catholic? - 14/10/2009 09:49:21 PM 422 Views
Bitch, please. - 14/10/2009 09:58:07 PM 406 Views
No worries, most catholics aren't even catholics..... *NM* - 15/10/2009 05:47:58 AM 136 Views
Precisely. *NM* - 15/10/2009 08:44:44 AM 229 Views
I hope you're not suggesting the Global Warming is only a rallying cry for the Right? - 14/10/2009 09:48:22 PM 389 Views
It looked like he was saying the opposite. - 14/10/2009 10:18:03 PM 355 Views
The ends don't justify the means..... - 14/10/2009 09:41:47 PM 402 Views
You missed my point... - 15/10/2009 04:18:11 PM 347 Views
- 14/10/2009 08:07:54 PM 356 Views
No worries, it's worth a second post!!! AGW is total BS..... - 14/10/2009 09:39:20 PM 484 Views
+1 *NM* - 14/10/2009 09:49:01 PM 166 Views
Well, it's good to see that some folks still actually follow science rather than politics - 16/10/2009 05:04:17 PM 422 Views
Well said, couldn't have said it better *NM* - 17/10/2009 02:27:14 AM 157 Views

Reply to Message