Active Users:453 Time:01/11/2024 07:58:08 AM
That makes it more complex, but I agree the same basic problem persists. Joel Send a noteboard - 07/10/2009 12:11:07 PM
Kinetic Energy isn't a conserved quantity, energy is (barring time zero of course) and so is momentum, but not kinetic energy. Entropy is a non-conserved quantity too, barring time zero again. Though in any steady-state model entropy over an infinite period of time does go down occassionaly. Again, in a steady-state, because if you take a deck of cards in an order and shuffle it, it's entropy will increase, but if you shuffle it enough times, it will return to it's orginal state. This principle leads a lot of us to believe, and God I hate this term, that the 'multi-verse' may be a steady state system. Even there though, you do end up back at the 'where the f did it originally come from' issue.

We can approach it on that basis, but something must still account for the transformation of potential energy into kinetic, and, once again, there's nothing to do so in the Big Bang. And yes, the "multi-verse" (which I agree is an awful term; the whole point of the term "universe" is that it's all encompassing, so there's only one, by definition) does simply dodge the issue. We can assign the Big Bang to the result of some a priori action in a larger realm, but at some point explaining THAT hypothetical realm is still reduced to an enigma.
Lot's of people play with a 'temporary quantum flux' thing as the origin reason, since energy only has to be conserved over a specific ratio of time to energy and that time is governed by the fundamental constants, which might not be the same outside our 'universe', but then you still fall into the 'so where'd that other stuff come from' issue. But it might explain our universe's origins, under the 'over an infinite period of time it shall rain snickers bars' rule of quantum mechanics.

It might, but then it's just a special case of a larger phenomenon; the Big Bang isn't as "big" as we presume. We still need a First Cause, whether in this "universe" or another of which it's only part. This is also the kind of thing that REALLY pisses me off at physicists who know better; you don't assert a COMPLETELY unobservable, unverifiable and unreproducible theorem and call it "science" just to avoid the supernatural, because it doesn't avoid the supernatural at all, nor is it science. Likewise, just because saying, "the pulled-out-of-my-button particle explains this force" resulted in that particle being experimentally observed the first few times doesn't mean it always will. Give me a better REASON than "because my theory requires it. " Or start conducing experiments in search of the Flying Spaghetti Monster; one mans conjecture is as good as anothers.... :rolleyes:
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
Do you think there's some kind of spiritual substance in the universe? - 14/09/2009 02:42:22 PM 812 Views
no, it is mostly hydrogen *NM* - 14/09/2009 02:43:47 PM 244 Views
No *NM* - 14/09/2009 03:01:32 PM 221 Views
not a chance *NM* - 14/09/2009 03:23:02 PM 230 Views
yes (in as much that we could choose to define it that way) - 14/09/2009 03:31:40 PM 608 Views
No *NM* - 14/09/2009 05:14:33 PM 224 Views
Wouldn't spiritual and substance be mutually exclusive? - 14/09/2009 05:27:09 PM 541 Views
Re: Wouldn't spiritual and substance be mutually exclusive? - 14/09/2009 06:20:45 PM 522 Views
I think there is definitely a spiritual force that underlies the unity of all things - 14/09/2009 06:11:01 PM 559 Views
That sounds very like gnosticism in many ways. - 18/09/2009 12:17:51 PM 565 Views
No. *NM* - 14/09/2009 07:06:59 PM 219 Views
define "spiritual'. - 14/09/2009 07:36:18 PM 494 Views
Rum. - 14/09/2009 08:25:46 PM 548 Views
YES! *NM* - 16/09/2009 02:10:55 PM 253 Views
How are we not married? *NM* - 19/09/2009 04:10:13 AM 227 Views
Bigamy laws. *NM* - 19/09/2009 03:49:59 PM 209 Views
My Achilles heel! *NM* - 19/09/2009 07:30:06 PM 231 Views
Timing *NM* - 21/09/2009 12:51:37 PM 219 Views
My Achilles ankle! *NM* - 21/09/2009 08:14:42 PM 239 Views
Your Face. *NM* - 21/09/2009 08:21:44 PM 220 Views
My Achilles face! - 07/10/2009 09:40:36 PM 445 Views
No *NM* - 14/09/2009 09:09:16 PM 212 Views
No *NM* - 14/09/2009 09:31:14 PM 225 Views
Yes, vodka. *NM* - 14/09/2009 10:02:19 PM 210 Views
Substance? - 14/09/2009 10:08:04 PM 504 Views
Yeah, boobs. - 15/09/2009 01:51:44 AM 492 Views
Not the way I'd put it, as jh notes, but unquestionably. - 15/09/2009 03:17:22 PM 535 Views
Look, don't put words in my mouth. - 15/09/2009 04:50:13 PM 564 Views
Sorry. - 15/09/2009 05:14:10 PM 493 Views
Re: Sorry. - 17/09/2009 09:20:58 PM 464 Views
People over-complicate this, it's a sort of animal abuse - 15/09/2009 09:03:01 PM 524 Views
Nicely put. *NM* - 17/09/2009 01:57:44 AM 205 Views
Very nicely put. *NM* - 17/09/2009 06:57:57 PM 208 Views
A sublte nuance most modern materialists miss. - 18/09/2009 12:21:33 PM 742 Views
I think there may be platonic forms defining purpose - 16/09/2009 06:27:36 AM 480 Views
The material universe precludes a purely natural cause. - 18/09/2009 12:04:16 PM 614 Views
One little correction - 20/09/2009 12:34:13 AM 623 Views
That makes it more complex, but I agree the same basic problem persists. - 07/10/2009 12:11:07 PM 652 Views
Nay. - 20/09/2009 07:04:47 AM 481 Views
Re: Nay. - 07/10/2009 11:55:28 AM 536 Views

Reply to Message