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Okay, that's a useful summary. Legolas Send a noteboard - 08/05/2016 10:15:51 PM

And I don't disagree with a lot of it - in fact everybody in this thread including the author of the article is in remarkable agreement on many points. We might need a few more devoted left-wingers than myself to generate debate on the key points of the article...

Also, just to save us both a lot of effort, I'm going to ignore the litany of cheap shots at liberals, and comment only on the serious criticism.

View original post-- The Holocaust was the end result of the same sort of general perspective as the left wing typically holds. The causes and issues of the left might change, but they are ungrounded in traditional morality and ethics, are generally willing to shortcut around or through traditional strictures and restraints to achieve their ideals, which are generally aimed at objectives beyond human experience. This actually serves to justify their cutting loose from approved, proven or tested methods and codes, because they are trying to get somewhere those ways have never led.

'Ungrounded in traditional morality and ethics' is hardly accurate. More willing to challenge certain aspects of traditional morality, which are seen as conflicting with the bigger idea, certainly. More inclined to see the ends justifying the means, that too. But the ends themselves aren't all that different and still derived from the same traditional ethics - those based on the Bible, Aristotle, etc.

View original postIn the early 20th century, the Progressive mentality embraced many positions and beliefs that were, in hindsight, rather monstrous and inhuman when taken to their logical extreme. The Nazis were not a reversion or reaction in support of tradition or established mores, they were every bit as iconoclastic and unconstrained as the anarchists, socialists and utopians who predated them. The traditionalists and conservatives opposed the Nazis on the same grounds and for the same reasons they opposed others who used Progress as their goal and justification.

I agree that Nazism and Fascism were in some ways progressive and displayed some similarities to the progressive movements on the left. But when you look at the relations between the various political movements at the time, it's still clear that Nazism and Fascism found their allies and enablers in the conservative and reactionary parties, while reserving their most fervent hatred for socialists and communists. Look at Mussolini, at Hitler, at Primo de Rivera - all three aligned themselves with the conservative right, because in the end their radical nationalism trumped (pun unintended until after I wrote it) all the points where they might've found themselves closer to the socialists.

View original postIt should not be surprising therefore, that people as ethically and morally rootless and relativistic keep falling into the same mistakes, since they deliberately part from tradition, which is the experience of generations, in an effort to transcend the known limitations of traditional methods. Ultimately, however personally moral a liberal might be, at the heart, he has no authority or firm guideposts on which to base that morality.

You're over-generalizing - besides your usual binary 'conservatives vs liberals' world view, I mean. There are plenty of 'liberal' Christians, Jews etc. who have precisely the same authority or guideposts as their conservative brethren in faith. They're just a little free in their interpretation of such sources, is all.

View original post-- The author makes the particularly striking claim attributing the perceived anti-Semitism among liberals to the influence of the Soviet Union, among the western left, citing the persecution of Jews under Stalin in the last years of his reign. In the first place, that Soviet influence has always been a point of heated contention. If the USSR reached so deeply into the community of Western liberalism, it would certainly justify Joe McCarthy's complaint. McCarthy was not calling for an anti-communist pogrom, he was contending that the communist associations and affiliations of numerous individuals with government positions within the national security apparatus made them security risks. If the USSR has the reach and influence the author claims was used to poison the left against the Jews, McCarthy was absolutely right.

Yeah. Agree with you there - McCarthy was most definitely not right, and neither is Palmer.

View original postLiberals from Stalin don't hate the Jews any more than they hate anyone else who has their act together and adheres to traditional mores or values or loyalties or methods of success and survival. The problems perceived by the author are not about their feelings toward Jews as such, but are hardwired into the DNA of the leftwing. The author's prescription for an honest discussion/debate on Israeli issues and treatment of Palestinians are completely against the liberal approach to any and all other issues.

That last part is partially true, but then again that only makes it more important to make such a prescription.

Reply to message

The Holocaust, the Left and the Return of Hate Legolas - 04/05/2016 09:52:39 PM 1208 Views

The one state "solution" is either anti-Sematic or just very naive or uninformed AgentApple - 05/05/2016 12:27:19 AM 658 Views

You realize those are two very different things. Legolas - 05/05/2016 07:26:48 PM 605 Views

Meh ßelals Girl - 05/05/2016 06:32:13 PM 654 Views

Yeah Cannoli - 05/05/2016 11:43:47 PM 619 Views

Uh. See, some of that, I would call anti-Semitic. Legolas - 06/05/2016 07:39:23 PM 565 Views

Don't care ßelals Girl - 06/05/2016 09:48:23 PM 720 Views

I'm glad to hear you're not saying that. Legolas - 06/05/2016 10:20:25 PM 500 Views

Re: I'm glad to hear you're not saying that. ßelals Girl - 07/05/2016 03:51:05 PM 604 Views

I don't know what approach you would normally take for tough love with your friends... Legolas - 08/05/2016 10:47:10 PM 472 Views

If I thought a friend was becoming the very thing that hurt them ßelals Girl - 12/05/2016 05:48:48 PM 491 Views

Is it really because Nazi comparisons are more painful, or because they're ironic? Ghavrel - 19/05/2016 03:14:22 AM 494 Views

It's not really about why people would make the association in their head... Legolas - 19/05/2016 05:32:33 PM 489 Views

Care to expand? The Shrike - 09/05/2016 01:46:01 PM 452 Views

Taking someone else's homeland for themselves ßelals Girl - 12/05/2016 05:52:16 PM 474 Views

The Left seems perfectly fine letting in millions of refugees into Europe AgentApple - 17/05/2016 09:44:20 AM 498 Views

When have I ever supported that?

ßelals Girl - 17/05/2016 12:20:53 PM 553 Views

I partially agree. Legolas - 17/05/2016 07:12:19 PM 468 Views

It was British land to do with as they pleased. The Ottomans lost WWI. The Shrike - 19/05/2016 05:57:55 PM 547 Views

This is just the same old leftist crap coming around full circle. Cannoli - 06/05/2016 06:16:31 AM 659 Views

You realize you're not obligated to reply something to every single paragraph, yes? Legolas - 06/05/2016 08:30:36 PM 489 Views

Re: You realize you're not obligated to reply something to every single paragraph, yes? Cannoli - 07/05/2016 09:17:49 PM 559 Views

Fine, let's try this another way Cannoli - 07/05/2016 11:06:16 PM 820 Views

Agreed 100%. Tom - 08/05/2016 05:59:02 PM 538 Views

Okay, that's a useful summary. Legolas - 08/05/2016 10:15:51 PM 513 Views

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<quote id="290529">
And I don't disagree with a lot of it - in fact everybody in this thread including the author of the article is in remarkable agreement on many points. We might need a few more devoted left-wingers than myself to generate debate on the key points of the article...

Also, just to save us both a lot of effort, I'm going to ignore the litany of cheap shots at liberals, and comment only on the serious criticism. 
<quote id="290518">-- The Holocaust was the end result of the same sort of general perspective as the left wing typically holds.  The causes and issues of the left might change, but they are ungrounded in traditional morality and ethics, are generally willing to shortcut around or through traditional strictures and restraints to achieve their ideals, which are generally aimed at objectives beyond human experience.  This actually serves to justify their cutting loose from approved, proven or tested methods and codes, because they are trying to get somewhere those ways have never led. </quote>
'Ungrounded in traditional morality and ethics' is hardly accurate. More willing to challenge certain aspects of traditional morality, which are seen as conflicting with the bigger idea, certainly. More inclined to see the ends justifying the means, that too. But the ends themselves aren't all that different and still derived from the same traditional ethics - those based on the Bible, Aristotle, etc. 
<quote id="290518">In the early 20th century, the Progressive mentality embraced many positions and beliefs that were, in hindsight, rather monstrous and inhuman when taken to their logical extreme.  The Nazis were not a reversion or reaction in support of tradition or established mores, they were every bit as iconoclastic and unconstrained as the anarchists, socialists and utopians who predated them.  The traditionalists and conservatives opposed the Nazis on the same grounds and for the same reasons they opposed others who used Progress as their goal and justification.  </quote>
I agree that Nazism and Fascism were in some ways progressive and displayed some similarities to the progressive movements on the left. But when you look at the relations between the various political movements at the time, it's still clear that Nazism and Fascism found their allies and enablers in the conservative and reactionary parties, while reserving their most fervent hatred for socialists and communists. Look at Mussolini, at Hitler, at Primo de Rivera - all three aligned themselves with the conservative right, because in the end their radical nationalism trumped (pun unintended until after I wrote it) all the points where they might've found themselves closer to the socialists.

From their side, the conservatives may not have been all that happy about such alliances, certainly there were some who objected strongly, but they still preferred them over alliances with the moderate left, with all the consequences that entailed. 
<quote id="290518">It should not be surprising therefore, that people as ethically and morally rootless and relativistic keep falling into the same mistakes, since they deliberately part from tradition, which is the experience of generations, in an effort to transcend the known limitations of traditional methods.  Ultimately, however personally moral a liberal might be, at the heart, he has no authority or firm guideposts on which to base that morality.</quote>
You're over-generalizing - besides your usual binary 'conservatives vs liberals' world view, I mean. There are plenty of 'liberal' Christians, Jews etc. who have precisely the same authority or guideposts as their conservative brethren in faith. They're just a little free in their interpretation of such sources, is all.

<quote id="290518">-- The author makes the particularly striking claim attributing the perceived anti-Semitism among liberals to the influence of the Soviet Union, among the western left, citing the persecution of Jews under Stalin in the last years of his reign.  In the first place, that Soviet influence has always been a point of heated contention.  If the USSR reached so deeply into the community of Western liberalism, it would certainly justify Joe McCarthy's complaint.  McCarthy was not calling for an anti-communist pogrom, he was contending that the communist associations and affiliations of numerous individuals with government positions within the national security apparatus made them security risks.  If the USSR has the reach and influence the author claims was used to poison the left against the Jews, McCarthy was absolutely right.</quote>
Yeah. Agree with you there - McCarthy was most definitely not right, and neither is Palmer.

<quote id="290518">Liberals from Stalin don't hate the Jews any more than they hate anyone else who has their act together and adheres to traditional mores or values or loyalties or methods of success and survival. The problems perceived by the author are not about their feelings toward Jews as such, but are hardwired into the DNA of the leftwing.  The author's prescription for an honest discussion/debate on Israeli issues and treatment of Palestinians are completely against the liberal approach to any and all other issues.  </quote>
That last part is partially true, but then again that only makes it more important to make such a prescription. 
</quote>

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