Active Users:924 Time:22/11/2024 02:46:10 AM
David Crystal estimates proficient non-natives outnumber native English speakers 3:1 Joel Send a noteboard - 10/08/2015 02:45:58 AM

That is very close my marginally educated guesstimate of 80%. I concede never researching the topic before now, but skimming online sources revealed few surprises. He further claims that, counting non-natives, India has more English speakers than ANY other nation; I found both claims on Wikipedia, which cited his book English as a Global Language as source of the first, and the below linked article as source of the second. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2004/nov/19/tefl

As preface to what (d)evolved into a long response (sorry) and FWIW, part of the problem seems to be that other languages with large numbers of non-native and/or international speakers have official standarization organizations to determine what is/not legitimate, but English does NOT. Consequently, all attempts at defining all- or even MOSTLY encompassing standards are necessarily ad hoc.


View original postIt might be a question of definitions to some extent - a dialect for me is primarily about spoken language, as even languages with only a single written standard can have tons of different dialects. Which includes British English - there are plenty of different British dialects even within the UK.

Checking shows “dialect” is essentially defined as “morphology+vocabulary+grammar+accent.” That is very unsatisfying, because it leaves no term for the first three exclusive of the last. Yet its practical effect is that ONLY the first three distinguish dialects, because “accent” fully covers the sole remaining criterion (i.e. pronunciation.) In terms of dialect, distinct accents are a case of an attribute “necessary but insufficient” to establish separation


View original postI don't know too much about American dialects, especially not Southern ones, so I couldn't possibly say how valid it is to view Southern as a single dialect which is hence the biggest in the USA. But I do agree that if it's the biggest in the USA, it's probably also the biggest in the world. At least before you go into the question of the non-native speakers.

Yet which NATIVE dialect is largest is irrelevant until we answer that critical question of whether to include the 75% of NON-native English speakers. English is the “primary” language of 22 nations, where populations of the 6 “Anglosphere” nations are roughly equlled by that of NON-Anglosphere nations (mainly Nigerias 220 million residents.) It is an (if not THE) official language in 15 more—including India and Pakistan. So restricting the question to the 6 “Anglosphere” nations is like Major League Baeball annually crowing a “World Series” champion despite ignoring all teams in Japan and the Caribbean nations that provide a growing number of MLBs best players. Wikipedias page on global English-speakers relies on Crystals stats extensively (though not exclusively; its Indian figures are from Indias millennial census, and about a third of Crystals estimate of Indian English speakers) and so ends with an estimate similar to his: 350 million native speakers; 850 million non-native speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population

Yet even if we DID dismiss 3 of every 4 English speakers, and even bearing in mind multiple accents are typically grouped under a single dialect, there is no single “Southern dialect” as such: Wikipedias English dialect article identifies no less tha SIX distinct Southern dialects (the four I previously mentioned, but with Louisiania and the Appalachian dialects each split into two separate dialects.) If forced to guess, I would say either the Texan or Tidewater (which I referenced as Piedmont) dialects are largest, but neither numbers >30 million speakers at the very most: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_the_English_language#United_States

View original post
View original postTrue: There is far more to dialect generally. That only underscores the significance of modern British English being practically indistinguishable from that taught and spoken in India, all of Western Europe, most of Africa and the remaining British colonies (just for the record: Indias population ALONE outnumbers the US (not just its Southern region) by a factor of 4, and Europes by a factor of 2.) Given all dialect involves, the nearly perfect equivalence between UK, Continental European, African and Indian English strongly suggest they are not just superficially and/or incidentally identical, but ACTUALLY so. That those speakers outnumber Southern US English speakers by an order of magnitude irrefutably establishes British English as the "larger" dialect by population as well as area.
As I was hinting, there is no such "nearly perfect equivalence" at all. Indian, Kenyan, Nigerian, ... English are all quite different, and India in particular is so big and has so many different native languages that I'm sure "Indian English" is already a big generalization in itself. Not only do they sound different, there are also bigger or smaller differences in vocabulary and even grammar. Sure, they may all write "colour" instead of "color", but that doesn't make them speak "British English".

I was not aware grammar and words differ within (for want of a better term) "African English," and that does make a difference. I never noticed it among coworkers, but they provide most of my experience with English-speaking Africans. I presumed colonialisms legacy included a largely uniform Commonwealth dialect with many accents, but if those dialects vary as much or more than others it is as difficult to precisely estimate their speakers. How great is the difference? The Midwestern dialect is distinct from others in the US, but Wisconsites referring to drinking fountains as “bubblers” does constitute an accent distinct from the rest of the Midwest; one term does not a dialect make: Are African dialects more comparable to that, or to the half dozen distinct and bona fide Southern dialects?

View original postYou'll note that I'm not talking here about continental Europeans - that's because things are different there. The large majority of English speakers in India, Kenya, Nigeria have other native languages, just like the ones in Europe, but the difference is that those three countries (and many other African ones) do use English as a lingua franca - much of the media, books, workplace communication, and so on is in English. Which means that e.g. Kenyan English has standards and norms of its own, and someone who speaks a different kind of English will stand out. For e.g. "German English", this is not the case - there is a German accent, sure, and perhaps even some words which German speakers are more or less likely to use - but those are markers of imperfect language skills rather than markers of a separate variety of English: as a German improves his English, those things will fade away.

Precisely what I meant, and one would expect that effect to be even more pronounced among separate but interacting nations using English as a lingua franca. After all, much of continental Europes uniform English is because Western European ALSO often uses it as a lingua franca (if often grudgingly.) According to what I first read when preparing to move here, Norwegian visa applicant are required to speak Norwegian OR ENGLISH, lucky for me since my Norwegian remains awful despite living her five years: Because it is so absurdly easy to speak English exclusively.

The Danish equivalent of "Cops" airs here, and a couple years ago the commercial for it included one of the cops, frustrated by inability to communicate with someone he was arresting, said, "You should learn English better before you travel in Europe." In fact, last years ranking of English Proficiency (apparently there is such a thing) rated Denmark #1 and Norway #5; for a reference frame, Belgium was 9th, followed by Germany at 10th, while France was all the way down at 29th—four spots below India, which has twenty times the population (so proportionately more English speakers.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index The list of nations by English speaking populations notes that, in 2012, 51% of EU residents spoke English, a total second only to the US on that list (though it falls to third if one accepts Crystals estimates of Indias English-speakers rather than that of Indias 2001 census.)


View original postAnd then which English will he speak as his fluency improves to near-native levels? Depends. Can be American as well as British English, or more likely something inbetween that is neither one nor the other. The most decisive factor would probably be who he spends most of his time talking to - Americans, Brits or other European non-native speakers.

I would wager kroner to smultringer he never speaks any Southern US dialect. New England may be less geographically mobile than the South, but is also far less xenophobic, so far more New Englanders live/work/vacation overseas.


View original post
View original post1) Many (I daresay most) Indian and Continental Europeans speak English at or near the level of fluency and
It all depends on how you define "fluency", but it's worth pointing out that most numbers I've seen estimate the amount of "English speakers" both native and non-native at no more than about 700 - 800 million globally. Which makes clear that certainly among the Indians, only a minority is counted.

That is a frankly awful and implausible estimate: Only 10% of the world can carry on a conversation in English? Even though ~70% of all internet exchanges are in English? The US, UK, Canada and Australia account for >400 million themselves: Is it plausible Asia, Europe and Africa COMBINED have no more than 300-400 million people who speak English well? Again, a 2012 survey of the EU alone found >250 million people spoke “conversational” English even if some were not perfectly fluent; there are only 50-150 million conversational English speakers among the 6 billion people outside North America, Australia and Western Europe? That is very dubious; Crystal may (or may not) overestimate English speakers, but Kachrus Three Circles Model underestimates them at least as much with far less cause; after all, Braj Kachru HIMSELF is an Indian native.

I worked with an Italian and Pole here who (embarrassingly) spoke three languages better than I speak two; we conversed almost exclusively in English and almost never had any problem fully understanding each other. Likewise (ironically) on breaks during the multiple Norwegian classes here: Even when NO participants were NATIVE English speakers, conversation was almost exclusively in English unless participants were all from the same country. In fact, my Norwegian society/culture class was TAUGHT in English (by one of those native African English speakers, though the fact he lived in Texas for two decades makes him unrepresentative.) All the various Europeans, Africans and Asians in each of those classes displayed a firm grasp of English. It is possible many of those people were the most educated citizens of their respective countries; I know some were. Yet even so: Among 6½ billion people, even the 10% most educated is DOUBLE the estimate of non-US/Commonwealth English speakers.


View original post
View original post2) between them constitute nearly 1/3 of the global populace; adding in Africans who either speak it on the same basis or as a native language makes them ~80% of all English speakers.
More like 50% based on the above.

There is no way the above estimate can be remotely accurate.


View original post
View original postWhen debating which dialect is a languages largest, how is it fair to NOT discuss 4 out of 5 its speakers just because they are non-native speakers, especially when most speak it as well as most natives? You write English better than many native speakers, so why would I exclude you from "English speakers" just because it is your second, third or fifteenth language? The is the form learned and used, not whether it was acquired from ones parents or ones formal educators.
Well, you have a point for cases like Kenya that I discussed above. But for countries where English isn't used in daily communication, I'm less sure. Even if you do count the fluent English speakers in those countries (and where does one draw the line of "fluent"?), it would be quite difficult to figure out which dialect they all speak.

It would certainly not be easy, in any case, but HOW difficult depends a great deal on how we define “dialect.”


View original postTo answer your question in the second post - in the English I was taught in school, the aim was to make students pick either British or American English and stick with it. Many Europeans, myself included, have a surprisingly hard time distinguishing between the two, because we constantly hear/read both, and both are familiar to us. So nearly everyone ends up with something inbetween, both in accent and in vocabulary, unless their individual circumstances are such that one of the two predominates (e.g. having British family, studying abroad in the US,...). In my personal case, the default is somewhere halfway, but when speaking to Brits it shifts in the direction of British, without ever quite getting there, and the same with Americans.

Fair enough then, and a good argument for Kachrus “International English:” If such an erratically fluid neutral dialect is the norm among the 75% of conversational but non-native English speakers, that “Dialect That Is Not Dialect” could ITSELF be the largest.


View original post
View original postBottom line, best case scenario for the assertion that started this sub-thread: The assertion cannot be conclusively PROVEN wrong, but there is much substantial EVIDENCE against it, and the burden of proof always lies on an assertion, else anyone could say any absurd thing and expect it to be accepted as fact until/unless someone refuted it by proving a negative. Since Indians alone (e.g. excluding Pakistanis) outnumber Southern English speakers by an order of magnitude, and European and African speakers each do so by half that much, it is very unlikely any (much less ALL) of them speak (an) English dialect(s) less common than the Souths. There is no airtight proof either way, but also no reason to believe dialect varies significantly more within any single region than within any other.
Any question of dialect size will depend on ultimately arbitrary decisions about where you draw the dividing line between one dialect and another - the infamous "dialect continuum". I think it doesn't make any sense to claim that all of the people you listed speak the same dialect. But, as mentioned, I don't know whether it does make sense to claim that "Southern" is in fact a single dialect.

No more (possibly less) than others: Wikipedias English dialects list has <10 for Africas 1 billion residents, but THIRTY-FIVE for 320 million US residents.


View original postThe last point, though, I completely disagree with - dialect certainly varies more within the UK than within the US. And within the US, it's not a coincidence that New England has more variety than the West. It's all a question of history - having more time to develop dialectical variations, and the amount of geographical mobility, which if high will rapidly erase dialect differences between regions. In Europe and to a much lesser extent in New England, you may find places with such low geographical mobility that to this day the local dialect is easily distinguishable from the one spoken a mere 3 miles further, with entire dialect groups living 30 or 50 miles apart. That's absolutely not the case in most of the US.

It is the case in much of the South, because mobility presupposes movements affordability, and even when it exists does not imply WILLINGNESS to move: Much of the South is impoverished and MOST of it is rural, provincial and insular; historically, those factors do not exactly correlate with numerical or cultural dominance. The biggest reason the Southern dialects are so numerous are 1) defeated and disenfranchised Confederates migrating to western territories where they could assume untainted new identities and 2) the Great Migration of Southern blacks who fled Southern segregation for the North (and its segregation) a century ago. Both groups took their dialects with them, passed them on to their kids and consequently formed large Southern dialect salients in the West and North. Yet there are six dialects even within the Souths own historical borders (of which the northern one has been steadily moving south at least since the Civil War) and >30 throughout the whole US; that is only slightly less than the UKs >40, even if each dialects speakers generally include far more people given a US population roughly five times Britains.

Ultimately, it is very hard to believe the upper limit of <30 million speakers of any given Southern dialect is anything like a plurality of the 1 billion+ conversational speakers of various English dialects. 3% is rarely a plurality of anything, and the proving the case for it here certainly requires more than a lone Southern partisan proudly waving the Confederate Battle flag and conflating accent with dialect to defy emeritus linguists and factual global surveys.

Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
Y'all, you guys, yous guys, or hey you all? - 25/07/2015 05:38:44 PM 1032 Views
Y'all may be the American South's greatest gift to the English language. - 27/07/2015 12:14:47 AM 664 Views
*whistles innocently* - 27/07/2015 04:17:43 AM 803 Views
"Hey, you guys!" is only correct if you are Rita Moreno - 27/07/2015 04:15:07 AM 635 Views
Perhaps, but you're also wrong. - 27/07/2015 04:45:48 AM 871 Views
Both spellings are "correct" to the extent EITHER are. - 27/07/2015 05:04:43 AM 859 Views
Funny.... - 29/07/2015 12:13:35 AM 734 Views
It is also correct if you are Sloth... on a pirate ship... *NM* - 29/07/2015 07:09:56 PM 543 Views
I will defer to you and Jeordam on that one - 29/07/2015 07:45:31 PM 708 Views
well since language is a democracy and the souther dialetic is the largest Y'all wins - 27/07/2015 02:07:22 PM 792 Views
The Southern dialect is the largest by what metric? - 27/07/2015 06:26:20 PM 780 Views
It also the accent most similar to what Victorian brits would have spoken - 27/07/2015 07:45:09 PM 706 Views
Whoa, now: The PIEDMONT accent may be closest to Received Pronunciation, but is not the whole South - 28/07/2015 12:37:56 AM 786 Views
I don't make the catagories but all the southern accents tend to be close *NM* - 28/07/2015 02:12:15 PM 494 Views
Except, as you noted, Virginias accent is closer to Englands (and New Englands, and South Africas) - 28/07/2015 11:00:46 PM 751 Views
that is not what I said - 29/07/2015 02:14:49 PM 763 Views
Sorry, I credited you w/knowing the Deep South, Appalachia and TX sound nothing like any UK accents - 29/07/2015 07:42:21 PM 709 Views
read slower and then read again until you understand what I said - 29/07/2015 08:14:19 PM 982 Views
"The people in the American South were Victorian Brits"?! I must have read that too fast - 29/07/2015 10:39:08 PM 718 Views
Erm. Not really sure what you're saying here... - 29/07/2015 11:35:26 PM 675 Views
Would "UK English" have been better? - 30/07/2015 10:47:53 PM 716 Views
Not really. - 31/07/2015 07:30:41 AM 672 Views
David Crystal estimates proficient non-natives outnumber native English speakers 3:1 - 10/08/2015 02:45:58 AM 651 Views
Interesting stuff. - 10/08/2015 07:12:26 PM 750 Views
Who says "yous guys"? Seriously? - 27/07/2015 07:56:28 PM 703 Views
B-movie mobsters - 28/07/2015 12:40:04 AM 875 Views
They said it when I lived in Chicago - 28/07/2015 02:10:27 PM 688 Views
Scots. - 28/07/2015 02:42:28 PM 733 Views
I have heard it a couple of times. - 28/07/2015 03:13:20 PM 683 Views
Isn't fake culture almos the defintion of hipster? *NM* - 28/07/2015 05:18:53 PM 363 Views
Depends, are trying to sound cool, like a douche, or Joe Pesci? *NM* - 29/07/2015 07:12:28 PM 554 Views
The distinction between the first two is negligible - 29/07/2015 07:52:50 PM 724 Views

Reply to Message