Active Users:1112 Time:23/11/2024 02:03:18 AM
Shortening is for bakers Joel Send a noteboard - 30/06/2015 10:59:59 AM

View original post
View original postWell, perhaps the biggest problem with insurgents is that it is usually impossible to know who is a bona fide civilian, or rather, insurgents remain indistinguishable until they attack. Israel gets a lot of criticism (and often deserves it) for "anti-terrorism" so indiscriminate it incidentally kills hundreds of kids, but much of that is based on Western outrage at the notion of "murdering an innocent ten-year-old!" without acknowledging simply being ten-years-old is no guarantee of innocence: When someone is charging with an automatic rifle blazing away or straps a bomb to their chest, their lethality is independent of whether they are 10 or 110. That does not excuse Israels cavalier careless policy, but does go far toward explaining it.

You're either confusing two different things, or, if this paragraph was meant to apply to the 1948 war which was what I was talking about, just plain wrong. The majority of Palestinian refugees in 1948 fled or were expelled with their entire village at once, without the slightest distinction between insurgents and peaceful villagers - the Haganah simply didn't have that kind of intel, and in many cases of expulsion, the reason was simple military convenience of wanting to rid various strategic positions from all Palestinian presence. In other cases plain bigotry from the Haganah commanders. And in those places where staying put was a real option and Palestinians had a real choice (of sorts), you might've expected any would-be terrorists or insurgents to opt to stay so as to be able to attack Israel from the inside. If there are any among those 800 000 or so Palestinian refugees who were specifically expelled because they were known troublemakers, it must be a negligibly small minority.

Yeah, I thought you meant the longstanding dispute over Palestinian right of return (which was technically the case, but not directly.) The '48 wars specific explusions are hard to justify even given the practical challenges of distinguishing between Palestinian non/combatants and truly OCCUPYING captured territory with military garrisons. At best, expulsions could only be excused on a temporary basis due to the wars ongoing manpower and material demands; even then temporary internment would be more excusable, and still dubious. Falling back on my preferred occupation model (which happened to be contemporary,) the Western Allies did not expel German civilians when occupying Germany after the war; the Soviets did just that everywhere but Germany itself (imprisoning or summarily murdering all who refused expulsion) and that fit the UN definition of genocide.


View original post
View original postJust MHO, but I think the West Bank and Israel would eventually come to an understanding, however grudging, if Gaza quit pouring gasoline on the fire each time the peace process "threatens" to extinguish it. Yes, the settlements are an issue, but at this point I am unsure how much Israel is committed to ANY West Bank settlements rather than just using them as another way to collectively punish Palestinians for the next round of terrorism. Jerusalem is the real sticking point, because so revered by both sides (though, strictly in terms of religious differences, "holiest city" trumps "THIRD holiest city:" Muslims have and prefer Medina and Mecca to Jerusalem, whose main value is from JEWISH kings Islam claims as holy men, but that principal "Islamic" value makes Jerusalem the ne plus ultra for Jews.) Yet if Jews can avoid the issue by maintaining Tel Aviv as political capital, Palestinians could do something similar and both declare Jerusalem a jointly possessed international city (that would certainly please the Orthodox and Catholic Churches.)

Actually, the main reason for Jerusalem's status in Islam is that Muhammad's famous "journey to heaven" is supposed to have taken place there. Though during that journey he does in fact meet several Jewish prophets (not kings, I don't think, but I don't remember the details enough to be sure David or Solomon isn't in there somewhere). By far the most important "Jewish" prophet for the Islam is Abraham, precisely because he predates the codification and crystallization of the Jewish religion and nation under Moses (plus, you know, the Ka'aba), and Islam sees him as a kind of non-partisan primeval monotheist.

Reconciling Islams love/hate relationship with Judaism baffles me on many levels. My Christian perspective (or bias) still sees it as a regression from salvation through grace to salvation through Mosaic law, which would make a kind of sense had such a religion not ALREADY existed for centuries, and a Semitic Mideastern one at that. I have not studied Islamic doctrine extensively, but it every time I see a tenet about banning pork or Friday evening worship I cannot help thinking, Tell me again why Muslims are anything but non-Jewish Jews.... The only difference that comes to mind is the Islamic ban on alcohol; the rest just seems like somebody got a copy of the Tanakh, then swapped each appearance of the names "Ishmael" and "Isaac."

"Non-partisan primeval monotheist" is not a bad description of Abraham, and perhaps a generous one: The narrative says he heard and obeyed Gods command to leave Sumer (or Babylon; same thing, and with the Assyrian interruption/assimilation I am never clear precisely when "Sumer" officially became "Babylon.) It does NOT say he worshipped God EXCLUSIVELY, and the Tanakh records many subsequent instances of Patriarchs and their immediate families practicing polytheism without censure: Explicit MONOTHEISM (and consequent condemnation of polytheism) only emerges with Moses. But through and after that time at least until the Christian era, I am unaware of ANY Islamic doctrine that does more than claim Jewish prophets and doctrine as its own. Though, again, I have not studied it exhaustively.


View original postBesides that, I mostly agree, except that as you probably realize, Hamas doesn't represent the entirety of the Gazan population any more than Fatah represents all of the West Bank; they are merely the dominant factions (and even that only in elections that happened already quite a number of years ago).

It depends on how absolutely we mean "represent." Obama represents the US wholly and globally, even though ~40% of Americans do not and never DID support him, and he advocates few of their positions while opposing many. Hamas sadly does dominate Gaza, and Gazans are self-evidently and just as sadly the only ones who can change that. The conflict between Hamas and Fatah is the best evidence for my earlier statement: Completely remove Israel from the equation and nothing changes. Fatah handles Hamas much as Israel once handled both, with the same degree and type of international support, while Hamas stops just short of declaring an Intifada against Fatah. The problem is the terrorists; remove THEM from the equation and the majority of Palestinians could and would be peaceful productive full citizens of whatever state they wished.


View original post
View original postThe really insoluble problem is Gaza, IMHO, and was even before Hamas took over there (a problem hardly improved by Fatah coming to terms with it in a coalition government: It just encourages the belief terrorism WORKS.) Egypt is probably better equipped to take it in hand than anyone except Israel though, and would not be accused of raism and genocide for doing so. But no one can force Egypt to take Gaza and, as you say, no one wants it but Palestine. The "Dred Sea" canal projects might even remove THAT desire; the progress of Israeli-Jordanian relations under King Hussein clearly show Israel can get along to mutual advantage with even the most historically hostile nations willing to forego destructive violence for constructive peace. None of that fixes Gaza though; I am unsure anything CAN.
Uh, I'm not sure where you get "the most historically hostile nations"? Israel has had a better relationship with Jordan than with any other Arab state since, well, before Israel even existed - that doesn't mean they weren't in wars against each other, obviously, but the war of 1948 might have ended quite differently if Jordan, with the best-trained army of all the invading countries and geographically the most dangerously placed, hadn't fought with one hand behind its back, and certainly without any intent of destroying the Jewish state. In 1973 Jordan even warned Israel secretly about the upcoming joint Egyptian-Syrian surprise attack. So the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty was merely the public culmination of a long process that until then had been largely secret. Begin and Sadat's peace was rather more impressive in that regard, and they well deserved their Nobel Prize.

Fair points; "historically hostile" then (Jordan DID join TWO wars against Israel, however reluctantly.) But if Begin and Sadat can do it (with many full-body "nudges" from Carter, who REALLY deserved that Peace Prize) anyone can--IF willing. Even Arafat got there (at least publicly...) though it took the disaster of the 2000 summit, and most of Fatah eventually followed, only to have Hamas fill the resulting vacuum for people committed to "war at any price." Since virtually NO Arab nation but the Saudis have found a lasting solution to that problem, it is no surprise a proto-state like Palestine has not; the one proven solution is no more internationally accepted than the status quo.


View original postAs for the coalition government, I thought it was a promising development - for any negotiations to have true legitimacy on the Palestinian side, it helps immensely if Hamas is involved in them, however reluctantly. Shame Netanyahu immediately did everything he could to sabotage it.

Well, that whole "remains committed to Israels extinction" thing was kind of a deal breaker, same as it was before Fatah conceded that point. Bibi is as tactful and conciliatory as a ten-pound sledgehammer to the face, but in that case I can hardly blame him paraphrasing Bushs "you are either with us or the terrorists." Fatah cannot ally with Israel AND a group committed to its destruction, and Israel dare not support Fatah when that supports Hamas into the bargain. The enemy of ones enemy may not be ones friend, the but the enemy of ones friend should certainly be ones enemy.

Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
Those morons in Gaza (i.e., Hamas) are at it again - - 18/07/2014 04:02:57 PM 1149 Views
If by awesome you mean execrable, then yes, you're right. - 18/07/2014 11:45:53 PM 654 Views
Sounds like someone doesn't like jews! - 19/07/2014 04:24:41 AM 586 Views
It's funny you should say that. - 19/07/2014 09:36:57 AM 667 Views
your criticism would be better applied to Palestine supporters - 19/07/2014 11:50:37 AM 568 Views
My criticism IS also applied to Palestine supporters. It's not an either/or deal. - 19/07/2014 09:03:51 PM 596 Views
Agreed on that much, certainly. - 23/07/2014 03:05:22 AM 721 Views
Well, look who's back in the game! - 23/07/2014 07:44:45 PM 819 Views
Haltingly.... - 07/08/2014 03:41:06 AM 646 Views
The only good thing about ancient interminable wars is that--more-- - 13/06/2015 11:40:48 PM 502 Views
Oh lord. - 22/06/2015 10:08:22 PM 570 Views
"'Dialing for Dollars' is looking for me" - 24/06/2015 04:48:51 AM 644 Views
At the risk of prompting another long ramble, I've no idea what that reference is to. - 24/06/2015 10:39:42 PM 529 Views
"Oh, Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz?!" - 26/06/2015 12:41:48 PM 504 Views
I'm going to try to shorten and summarize this a bit... - 28/06/2015 11:21:28 PM 845 Views
It sounds like our only practical point of disagreement is Gazas status - 29/06/2015 12:31:11 AM 572 Views
Pretty much, though I have a few factual quibbles with this post again. So much for shortening. - 29/06/2015 08:46:35 PM 560 Views
Shortening is for bakers - 30/06/2015 10:59:59 AM 658 Views
I couldn't help but overhear... - 19/07/2014 01:13:01 PM 641 Views
Good, I was hoping you'd drop by! - 19/07/2014 08:33:44 PM 756 Views
I strongly beg to differ with your position re: Hamas - 26/07/2014 04:25:54 PM 521 Views
Sorry, I don't see that. - 26/07/2014 08:57:08 PM 608 Views
I guess if you believe the lies of Hamas your position makes sense. - 27/07/2014 03:20:03 PM 553 Views
+1 - 27/07/2014 04:00:05 PM 625 Views
I certainly don't believe everything they say, no. - 27/07/2014 06:43:51 PM 631 Views
the carrot and stick is somewhat apt, although israel should have given way more carrots to date - 22/07/2014 08:57:13 PM 654 Views
So Israel should back the least radical Palestinian faction & construct Palestinian infrastructure? - 23/07/2014 04:51:19 AM 615 Views
yes - 23/07/2014 05:04:58 PM 767 Views
I pretty much agree with everything you said. - 24/07/2014 09:46:22 AM 739 Views
Why do you hate America? - 23/07/2014 02:29:24 AM 621 Views
Bottom line - stop lobbing missles into Israel and the problem is solved. - 28/07/2014 03:35:46 AM 541 Views
It's a circle of violence. Both sides are the villian. - 31/07/2014 03:50:52 AM 656 Views

Reply to Message