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I pretty much agree with everything you said. AgentApple Send a noteboard - 24/07/2014 09:46:22 AM

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View original postSorry, that's a dumb joke. I picture RAFO as a quiet cafe with not mcuh passers by.


View original postFrom my POV, there's much merit to both your talking points. I mean, the pro-Palestinian supporters seem to be so righteous and unquestioning I tend to think maybe they have the right attitude for their cause. I don't seem to recall such disruptive protests when Assad was killing 300000 Sunnies, but hit Gaza with a fraction of that force and you get tehm all riled up.


View original postI think Isrsel needs to adopt a carrot and stick attitude, give more carrots to Fatah. What those carrots should be, I'm not sure.


View original postYou and I always agreed Israel should withdraw to the 1967 borders with some land swaps, but if there is something Gaza has shown it is that things are never that simple. Why wouldn't Hamas take over the west bank and continue its resistance from there ? There are plenty of children and civilians to hide behind in the West Bank too, and you know the pro-Palestinian crowd will keep at it no matter what.


View original postThere was a good comparison somewhere between the Palestinians and Iraqi Kurdistan. Barazani said they also had the option of terror, but chose nation building instead. If Gaza had chosen nation building, they could have forced Israel via popular opinion to lift the blockade in 6 months, a year tops. You and I know that if Israel lifts the blockade they would use it to bring in even heavier weaponry, which will result in more children dying when playing at the beach.


View original postAnyways, that's just talk because it's the time for a stick now, and that's something Bibi is doing very well right now. There is really no choice. Bibi cannot allow routine rockets on Tel Aviv, even if they do get intercepted. Because rockets and sirens day in and day out will make anyone who is young and capable or has a dual citizenship leave to Europe or the US. He's got Egypt in our corner now and Hamas must be hit as hard as possible.


View original postI really cannot see how he can do anything different.


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View original postIsrael had a golden opportunity during the unilateral withdrawal in 2005 to prop up a faction which was not hamas when they retreated. instead they left hamas its own golden opportunity to seize power over fatah and the other factions, ending in the bloody takeover in 2007. at some point Israel needs to acknowledge that their actions are destroying a two-state solution to the conflict, and that it is in their best interests to be beneficent toward the Palestinians. after all, people who have nothing to lose are much more likely to turn to terrorist organizations like hamas, but if they have something to lose (like a stable life, food, water, etc) they are less likely to seek out violence as a solution to their problems. continuing the occupation and subjugation of the Palestinians just breeds more terrorism and more extremists, thus perpetuating the violence on both sides.

Well, there were border agreements with the PA. And the PA was officially in charge. I don't know if Israel could have done anything to keep it that way. The withdrawl from Gaza was percieved and marketed as a Hamas victory, so they got a lot of popular support from that episode.


View original postbibi also missed out another golden opportunity to diminish hamas by accepting the power arrangement of the Palestinian Authority, but instead he walked away and accelerated the settlement programs. There have been way too many missed opportunities by Israel to negotiate an actual peaceful arrangement at this point, especially if they continue to insist that all of the settled land is part of the official state of Israel. they can't have it both ways by pretending to be a partner in peace, then destroying any possibility of peace by expanding settlements and building bigger and stronger walls on the borders.

Well, good fences make good neighbours.

I sort of agree with what you say, though I am not sure if it is truely so. It's true Bibi seemed very rigid about Kerry's negotiations, but he did conceed that withdrawls will be necessary for peace. Abbas, OTOH, avoided the issue of recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, meaning he is not willing to forgo the issue of refugees "right of return". He tried to sidestep it but it is not a minor obstacle.
Personally, I think even compromise can be achieved on this front. What if, say, the top 40000 eduacted 48' Palestinian offspring could get a visa if they pass Hebrew tests ? This could help everyone get off their high tree and maybe boost the economy at the same time ?

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Those morons in Gaza (i.e., Hamas) are at it again - Anonymous2000 - 18/07/2014 04:02:57 PM 1154 Views
If by awesome you mean execrable, then yes, you're right. Legolas - 18/07/2014 11:45:53 PM 656 Views
Sounds like someone doesn't like jews! Anonymous2000 - 19/07/2014 04:24:41 AM 588 Views
It's funny you should say that. Legolas - 19/07/2014 09:36:57 AM 669 Views
your criticism would be better applied to Palestine supporters random thoughts - 19/07/2014 11:50:37 AM 570 Views
+1 - Besides muslim countries, Europe in general is the last bastion of anti-semitism Anonymous2000 - 19/07/2014 01:12:36 PM 718 Views
Except for the US. And Russia. So pretty much every place that HAS a Jewish population. Joel - 23/07/2014 02:35:18 AM 594 Views
My criticism IS also applied to Palestine supporters. It's not an either/or deal. Legolas - 19/07/2014 09:03:51 PM 599 Views
Agreed on that much, certainly. Joel - 23/07/2014 03:05:22 AM 725 Views
Well, look who's back in the game! Legolas - 23/07/2014 07:44:45 PM 824 Views
Haltingly.... Joel - 07/08/2014 03:41:06 AM 648 Views
The only good thing about ancient interminable wars is that--more-- Joel - 13/06/2015 11:40:48 PM 504 Views
Only one necro post. What have you done with the real Joel? random thoughts - 14/06/2015 02:36:57 AM 546 Views
Well, it HAS been a year; had I not promised, I would not have responded at all after that long Joel - 14/06/2015 03:02:58 AM 599 Views
Oh lord. Legolas - 22/06/2015 10:08:22 PM 573 Views
"'Dialing for Dollars' is looking for me" Joel - 24/06/2015 04:48:51 AM 646 Views
At the risk of prompting another long ramble, I've no idea what that reference is to. Legolas - 24/06/2015 10:39:42 PM 530 Views
"Oh, Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz?!" Joel - 26/06/2015 12:41:48 PM 507 Views
I'm going to try to shorten and summarize this a bit... Legolas - 28/06/2015 11:21:28 PM 847 Views
It sounds like our only practical point of disagreement is Gazas status Joel - 29/06/2015 12:31:11 AM 575 Views
Pretty much, though I have a few factual quibbles with this post again. So much for shortening. Legolas - 29/06/2015 08:46:35 PM 563 Views
Shortening is for bakers Joel - 30/06/2015 10:59:59 AM 660 Views
I couldn't help but overhear... AgentApple - 19/07/2014 01:13:01 PM 643 Views
Good, I was hoping you'd drop by! Legolas - 19/07/2014 08:33:44 PM 758 Views
I strongly beg to differ with your position re: Hamas Tom - 26/07/2014 04:25:54 PM 523 Views
Sorry, I don't see that. Legolas - 26/07/2014 08:57:08 PM 611 Views
I guess if you believe the lies of Hamas your position makes sense. Tom - 27/07/2014 03:20:03 PM 557 Views
+1 AgentApple - 27/07/2014 04:00:05 PM 627 Views
I certainly don't believe everything they say, no. Legolas - 27/07/2014 06:43:51 PM 635 Views
As so often the Economist is the voice of common sense: Legolas - 29/07/2014 05:44:59 PM 659 Views
The Economist is the voice of London finance. Tom - 03/08/2014 03:22:47 AM 477 Views
That bias works out well for the purpose of finding pragmatic solutions for conflicts, though. Legolas - 03/08/2014 05:51:39 PM 681 Views
Or for creating casuist arguments in order to take a side based on self-interest... Tom - 05/08/2014 09:55:58 PM 570 Views
Honestly? Do you seriously believe that is the real reason why they wrote that? *NM* Legolas - 06/08/2014 09:17:17 PM 275 Views
the carrot and stick is somewhat apt, although israel should have given way more carrots to date moondog - 22/07/2014 08:57:13 PM 658 Views
So Israel should back the least radical Palestinian faction & construct Palestinian infrastructure? Joel - 23/07/2014 04:51:19 AM 618 Views
yes moondog - 23/07/2014 05:04:58 PM 770 Views
I pretty much agree with everything you said. AgentApple - 24/07/2014 09:46:22 AM 742 Views
Israel is 100% right to kill children playing soccer on the beach? you have reached a new low... *NM* moondog - 22/07/2014 08:59:50 PM 301 Views
No less than Hamas is 100% right to GET them killed hiding behind them Joel - 23/07/2014 04:38:55 AM 654 Views
these kids were playing soccer with *JOURNALISTS* they were not being used as human shields moondog - 23/07/2014 04:59:05 PM 634 Views
Why do you hate America? Joel - 23/07/2014 02:29:24 AM 624 Views
Bottom line - stop lobbing missles into Israel and the problem is solved. Anonymous2000 - 28/07/2014 03:35:46 AM 543 Views
It's a circle of violence. Both sides are the villian. MrFarstrider - 31/07/2014 03:50:52 AM 658 Views
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