Community Messageboard: I pretty much agree with everything you said. by AgentApple

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I pretty much agree with everything you said. AgentApple Send a noteboard - 24/07/2014 09:46:22 AM

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View original postSorry, that's a dumb joke. I picture RAFO as a quiet cafe with not mcuh passers by.

View original postFrom my POV, there's much merit to both your talking points. I mean, the pro-Palestinian supporters seem to be so righteous and unquestioning I tend to think maybe they have the right attitude for their cause. I don't seem to recall such disruptive protests when Assad was killing 300000 Sunnies, but hit Gaza with a fraction of that force and you get tehm all riled up.

View original postI think Isrsel needs to adopt a carrot and stick attitude, give more carrots to Fatah. What those carrots should be, I'm not sure.

View original postYou and I always agreed Israel should withdraw to the 1967 borders with some land swaps, but if there is something Gaza has shown it is that things are never that simple. Why wouldn't Hamas take over the west bank and continue its resistance from there ? There are plenty of children and civilians to hide behind in the West Bank too, and you know the pro-Palestinian crowd will keep at it no matter what.

View original postThere was a good comparison somewhere between the Palestinians and Iraqi Kurdistan. Barazani said they also had the option of terror, but chose nation building instead. If Gaza had chosen nation building, they could have forced Israel via popular opinion to lift the blockade in 6 months, a year tops. You and I know that if Israel lifts the blockade they would use it to bring in even heavier weaponry, which will result in more children dying when playing at the beach.

View original postAnyways, that's just talk because it's the time for a stick now, and that's something Bibi is doing very well right now. There is really no choice. Bibi cannot allow routine rockets on Tel Aviv, even if they do get intercepted. Because rockets and sirens day in and day out will make anyone who is young and capable or has a dual citizenship leave to Europe or the US. He's got Egypt in our corner now and Hamas must be hit as hard as possible.

View original postI really cannot see how he can do anything different.

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View original postIsrael had a golden opportunity during the unilateral withdrawal in 2005 to prop up a faction which was not hamas when they retreated. instead they left hamas its own golden opportunity to seize power over fatah and the other factions, ending in the bloody takeover in 2007. at some point Israel needs to acknowledge that their actions are destroying a two-state solution to the conflict, and that it is in their best interests to be beneficent toward the Palestinians. after all, people who have nothing to lose are much more likely to turn to terrorist organizations like hamas, but if they have something to lose (like a stable life, food, water, etc) they are less likely to seek out violence as a solution to their problems. continuing the occupation and subjugation of the Palestinians just breeds more terrorism and more extremists, thus perpetuating the violence on both sides.

Well, there were border agreements with the PA. And the PA was officially in charge. I don't know if Israel could have done anything to keep it that way. The withdrawl from Gaza was percieved and marketed as a Hamas victory, so they got a lot of popular support from that episode.

View original postbibi also missed out another golden opportunity to diminish hamas by accepting the power arrangement of the Palestinian Authority, but instead he walked away and accelerated the settlement programs. There have been way too many missed opportunities by Israel to negotiate an actual peaceful arrangement at this point, especially if they continue to insist that all of the settled land is part of the official state of Israel. they can't have it both ways by pretending to be a partner in peace, then destroying any possibility of peace by expanding settlements and building bigger and stronger walls on the borders.

Well, good fences make good neighbours.

I sort of agree with what you say, though I am not sure if it is truely so. It's true Bibi seemed very rigid about Kerry's negotiations, but he did conceed that withdrawls will be necessary for peace. Abbas, OTOH, avoided the issue of recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, meaning he is not willing to forgo the issue of refugees "right of return". He tried to sidestep it but it is not a minor obstacle.
Personally, I think even compromise can be achieved on this front. What if, say, the top 40000 eduacted 48' Palestinian offspring could get a visa if they pass Hebrew tests ? This could help everyone get off their high tree and maybe boost the economy at the same time ?

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Those morons in Gaza (i.e., Hamas) are at it again -

Anonymous2000 - 18/07/2014 04:02:57 PM 1150 Views

If by awesome you mean execrable, then yes, you're right. Legolas - 18/07/2014 11:45:53 PM 655 Views

Sounds like someone doesn't like jews! Anonymous2000 - 19/07/2014 04:24:41 AM 587 Views

It's funny you should say that. Legolas - 19/07/2014 09:36:57 AM 667 Views

your criticism would be better applied to Palestine supporters random thoughts - 19/07/2014 11:50:37 AM 568 Views

+1 - Besides muslim countries, Europe in general is the last bastion of anti-semitism Anonymous2000 - 19/07/2014 01:12:36 PM 716 Views

Except for the US. And Russia. So pretty much every place that HAS a Jewish population. Joel - 23/07/2014 02:35:18 AM 591 Views

My criticism IS also applied to Palestine supporters. It's not an either/or deal. Legolas - 19/07/2014 09:03:51 PM 597 Views

Agreed on that much, certainly. Joel - 23/07/2014 03:05:22 AM 721 Views

Well, look who's back in the game!

Legolas - 23/07/2014 07:44:45 PM 820 Views

Haltingly.... Joel - 07/08/2014 03:41:06 AM 647 Views

The only good thing about ancient interminable wars is that--more-- Joel - 13/06/2015 11:40:48 PM 502 Views

Only one necro post. What have you done with the real Joel? random thoughts - 14/06/2015 02:36:57 AM 544 Views

Well, it HAS been a year; had I not promised, I would not have responded at all after that long Joel - 14/06/2015 03:02:58 AM 596 Views

Oh lord.

Legolas - 22/06/2015 10:08:22 PM 570 Views

"'Dialing for Dollars' is looking for me" Joel - 24/06/2015 04:48:51 AM 644 Views

At the risk of prompting another long ramble, I've no idea what that reference is to.

Legolas - 24/06/2015 10:39:42 PM 529 Views

"Oh, Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz?!" Joel - 26/06/2015 12:41:48 PM 505 Views

I'm going to try to shorten and summarize this a bit... Legolas - 28/06/2015 11:21:28 PM 845 Views

It sounds like our only practical point of disagreement is Gazas status Joel - 29/06/2015 12:31:11 AM 573 Views

Pretty much, though I have a few factual quibbles with this post again.

So much for shortening. Legolas - 29/06/2015 08:46:35 PM 561 Views

Shortening is for bakers

Joel - 30/06/2015 10:59:59 AM 658 Views

I couldn't help but overhear... AgentApple - 19/07/2014 01:13:01 PM 642 Views

Good, I was hoping you'd drop by! Legolas - 19/07/2014 08:33:44 PM 756 Views

I strongly beg to differ with your position re: Hamas Tom - 26/07/2014 04:25:54 PM 522 Views

Sorry, I don't see that. Legolas - 26/07/2014 08:57:08 PM 609 Views

I guess if you believe the lies of Hamas your position makes sense. Tom - 27/07/2014 03:20:03 PM 554 Views

+1 AgentApple - 27/07/2014 04:00:05 PM 626 Views

I certainly don't believe everything they say, no. Legolas - 27/07/2014 06:43:51 PM 632 Views

As so often the Economist is the voice of common sense: Legolas - 29/07/2014 05:44:59 PM 655 Views

The Economist is the voice of London finance. Tom - 03/08/2014 03:22:47 AM 475 Views

That bias works out well for the purpose of finding pragmatic solutions for conflicts, though. Legolas - 03/08/2014 05:51:39 PM 679 Views

Or for creating casuist arguments in order to take a side based on self-interest... Tom - 05/08/2014 09:55:58 PM 569 Views

Honestly? Do you seriously believe that is the real reason why they wrote that? *NM* Legolas - 06/08/2014 09:17:17 PM 275 Views

the carrot and stick is somewhat apt, although israel should have given way more carrots to date moondog - 22/07/2014 08:57:13 PM 655 Views

So Israel should back the least radical Palestinian faction & construct Palestinian infrastructure? Joel - 23/07/2014 04:51:19 AM 615 Views

yes moondog - 23/07/2014 05:04:58 PM 767 Views

I pretty much agree with everything you said. AgentApple - 24/07/2014 09:46:22 AM 740 Views

Israel is 100% right to kill children playing soccer on the beach? you have reached a new low... *NM* moondog - 22/07/2014 08:59:50 PM 301 Views

No less than Hamas is 100% right to GET them killed hiding behind them Joel - 23/07/2014 04:38:55 AM 652 Views

these kids were playing soccer with *JOURNALISTS* they were not being used as human shields moondog - 23/07/2014 04:59:05 PM 632 Views

Why do you hate America?

Joel - 23/07/2014 02:29:24 AM 621 Views

Bottom line - stop lobbing missles into Israel and the problem is solved. Anonymous2000 - 28/07/2014 03:35:46 AM 542 Views

It's a circle of violence. Both sides are the villian. MrFarstrider - 31/07/2014 03:50:52 AM 658 Views

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<quote id="284794">Sorry, that's a dumb joke.  I picture RAFO as a quiet cafe with not mcuh passers by.</quote>

<quote id="284794">From my POV, there's much merit to both your talking points.  I mean, the pro-Palestinian supporters seem to be so righteous and unquestioning I tend to think maybe they have the right attitude for their cause.  I don't seem to recall such disruptive protests when Assad was killing 300000 Sunnies, but hit Gaza with a fraction of that force and you get tehm all riled up.</quote>

<quote id="284794">I think Isrsel needs to adopt a carrot and stick attitude, give more carrots to Fatah.  What those carrots should be, I'm not sure.</quote>

<quote id="284794">You and I always agreed Israel should withdraw to the 1967 borders with some land swaps, but if there is something Gaza has shown it is that things are never that simple.  Why wouldn't Hamas take over the west bank and continue its resistance from there ?  There are plenty of children and civilians to hide behind in the West Bank too, and you know the pro-Palestinian crowd will keep at it no matter what.</quote>

<quote id="284794">There was a good comparison somewhere between the Palestinians and Iraqi Kurdistan.  Barazani said they also had the option of terror, but chose nation building instead.  If Gaza had chosen nation building, they could have forced Israel via popular opinion to lift the blockade in 6 months, a year tops.  You and I know that if Israel lifts the blockade they would use it to bring in even heavier weaponry, which will result in more children dying when playing at the beach.</quote>

<quote id="284794">Anyways, that's just talk because it's the time for a stick now, and that's something Bibi is doing very well right now.  There is really no choice.  Bibi cannot allow routine rockets on Tel Aviv, even if they do get intercepted.  Because rockets and sirens day in and day out will make anyone who is young and capable or has a dual citizenship leave to Europe or the US.  He's got Egypt in our corner now and Hamas must be hit as hard as possible.</quote>

<quote id="284794">I really cannot see how he can do anything different.</quote>

<quote id="284794">Israel had a golden opportunity during the unilateral withdrawal in 2005 to prop up a faction which was *not* hamas when they retreated.  instead they left hamas its own golden opportunity to seize power over fatah and the other factions, ending in the bloody takeover in 2007.  at some point Israel needs to acknowledge that their actions are destroying a two-state solution to the conflict, and that it is in their best interests to be beneficent toward the Palestinians.  after all, people who have nothing to lose are much more likely to turn to terrorist organizations like hamas, but if they have something to lose (like a stable life, food, water, etc) they are less likely to seek out violence as a solution to their problems.  continuing the occupation and subjugation of the Palestinians just breeds more terrorism and more extremists, thus perpetuating the violence on both sides.</quote>

Well, there were border agreements with the PA.  And the PA was officially in charge.  I don't know if Israel could have done anything to keep it that way.  The withdrawl from Gaza was percieved and marketed as a Hamas victory, so they got a lot of popular support from that episode.

<quote id="284794">bibi also missed out another golden opportunity to diminish hamas by accepting the power arrangement of the Palestinian Authority, but instead he walked away and accelerated the settlement programs.  There have been way too many missed opportunities by Israel to negotiate an actual peaceful arrangement at this point, especially if they continue to insist that all of the settled land is part of the official state of Israel.  they can't have it both ways by pretending to be a partner in peace, then destroying any possibility of peace by expanding settlements and building bigger and stronger walls on the borders.</quote>

Well, good fences make good neighbours. ;)

I sort of agree with what you say, though I am not sure if it is truely so.  It's true Bibi seemed very rigid about Kerry's negotiations, but he did conceed that withdrawls will be necessary for peace.  Abbas, OTOH, avoided the issue of recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, meaning he is not willing to forgo the issue of refugees "right of return".  He tried to sidestep it but it is not a minor obstacle.  
Personally, I think even compromise can be achieved on this front.  What if, say, the top 40000 eduacted 48' Palestinian offspring  could get a visa if they pass Hebrew tests ?  This could help everyone get off their high tree and maybe boost the economy at the same time ?
</quote>

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