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Well, look who's back in the game! Legolas Send a noteboard - 23/07/2014 07:44:45 PM

View original postI know there are probably more European Jews where you are than anywhere except maybe the UK, and that between the two that is probably 70-80% of ALL European (or at least Western European) Jews. All that said, I still cannot help feeling the Holocaust did not so much wipe out European anti-Semitism as prompt it to export "the Jewish Question" once and for all and count a European anti-Semitic debt going back to Rome paid. In that sense, one could argue Europe was obligated to restore a Jewish nation-state because Europe destroyed it in the FIRST place, for the great crime of demanding independence sought by force when refused.

Hold on, hold on. Let us not confuse concepts: anti-Semitism is not anti-Zionism, or anti-Israelism (if that isn't a word, it should be one). The most obvious proof for that is the aforementioned Haredi communities in Europe who are, rather obviously, Jewish, but are also, as a matter of religious principle, anti-Zionist. And no, the answer to that riddle is not that they hate themselves.

So honestly, if you seriously want to debate the question of whether Europe is still anti-Semitic or not, how about we leave Israel out of it and look at the Jewish communities inside Europe, and how those are treated. Then I think you'll see what I said - apart from some Muslim immigrants and to some extent some far-righters, especially in Eastern-Europe, anti-Semitism is pretty much dead. And in the case of those Muslims, it's really for the most part (not fully, I'll grant you) a case of radical anti-Zionism leading to anti-Semitism. Which is completely unacceptable, and grossly unfair to the European Jews, especially considering that most of them are in Europe because they don't want to support Zionism in Israel. But it doesn't really have much to do with the old kind of European/Christian anti-Semitism.

View original postAll that is just an ignorant immigrants impression, yet I cannot shake the strong recurrent feeling that exporting the Jewish Question never expunged Europes anti-Semitism, only prompted support for Palestinians as "anti-Semitism by proxy." One could go blind seeking European leaders denouncing Palestinian terrorism, even at the height of the Cold War, when Israel was a NATO- while Egypt and Syria were Soviet allies regularly and genocidally invading Israel: Even then, Europes NATO-member leaders had naught but condemnation for their own nominal Israeli allies, and excuses for their own nominal (if distant) foes. Maybe after the Munich Olympics—for a few weeks? Still did not justify occupying Gaza and the Golan after the three-nation a few months earlier, right?

Hardly. I'd suggest you read this, an interview with Avi Pazner, who was Israeli ambassador in both Italy and France. You'll note that he definitely doesn't agree with me on all points, and that, understandably, he's rather quicker to call people or things anti-Semitic than I am. But he at least knows what he's talking about, and is not as blind/ill-willed (honestly, I don't know which of the two words is the more accurate here, you guys tell me) about the factors behind such anti-Semitism and/or anti-Zionism as a number of Americans here on the site seem to be.

You'll note that Pazner confirms a number of important points I've made:
- that European popular opinion was much more pro-Israel prior to the Israeli victories of 1967 and 1973
- that European popular support for the Palestinian intifada's has much to do with their perception of the conflict as an anti-colonial one
- that at least among contemporary Europeans (De Gaulle hardly counts as such), anti-Semitism as Pazner sees it generally arises from criticism of the actions of Israel, which then radicalizes
- that "the average person abroad" naturally has sympathy for what is perceived as the weaker side, i.e. the Palestines (he doesn't say that that goes more for Europeans than for Americans, but I think we can all agree that it does)

Besides that, he also points out - rightly - that in terms of official policy, the European stance in the conflict has often been, as governments' stances often tend to be, self-interested more than anything else, not being able to afford antagonizing the Arab states too much. I don't know if that has much effect on public opinion, though. The only thing in the article that I think is really silly or wrong is to describe the Venice Declaration as "anti-Israeli" (though while we're at it, note the word choice).

View original postThat attitude has hardly softened since the Soviet demise removed incentive to support Israel; acknowledgement of Israels rights are ever and always as arguments they entitle Palestinians to the same: Never for Israel itself. Consider that even AFTER the Holocaust, Britain STILL refused to honor its decades-old pledge of an Israeli nation until the political embarrassment of a refugee ship sailing all over the Atlantic rather than accept any home but its own, while Ben Gurions terrorists bombed the King David Hotel to force their hand. After Romes genocidal Diaspora started it all, resulting in two millennia of Inquistion, Blood Libel, Shylocks, Dreyfus Affairs, pogroms, and Pales of Settlement, even the HOLOCAUST was not enough "by itself" to justify Europe restoring the Israeli state it eradicated.

That Britain wasn't exactly thrilled to establish an Israeli state - well, considering the amount of Arab colonies / mandates they had in the Middle East, what exactly did you expect? That, and they had quite a lot of other things on their hands, both domestically and in foreign policy terms (e.g., India).

I was going to defend Ben Gurion, but upon verification, my recollection of the event, which was something like "the Haganah might have been aware but certainly not responsible" seems to be wrong, at least according to Wikipedia which says the Haganah explicitly asked Begin's Irgun to perpetrate the bombing.

I have no desire to start again with endless discussions about the silliness of dismissing two thousand years of Jewish history in the diaspora, which for all its horrors also contains many glorious and proud moments, and witnessed the birth of every intellectual or religious movement of any relevance in contemporary Judaism, as merely an interruption in the history of the state of Israel. And claiming that the Europe of the late 1940s had any obligation whatsoever to offer compensations for actions of the Roman Empire is patently ridiculous - with that kind of view of history, you might as well argue that the Jews in the Mandate had a four thousand year old debt to the descendants of Ishmael.

View original postSo I do not believe it ended European anti-Semitism; if it had, Israel would have been restored in 1945 rather than 1948, and Europeans would not generally be more sympathetic to a 70-year-old right of return for Palestinians who were never a nation than a 2000-year-old right of return for Israelis who were a nation for centuries.

I'm sure older Europeans such as de Gaulle did not lose their anti-Semitic instincts from one day to the next, no, as Pazner proves in the article I linked to. Prejudices may need some time to die off, in much the same way that the KKK's nasty positions first became subjects only discussed in private in trusted company, as they were no longer accepted in public discourse, and then subjects not discussed at all except among a tiny minority of Americans. Nevertheless, by the sixties, those in the mainstream who still had anti-Semitic sentiments kept them to themselves, and public opinion was widely pro-Israel.

But as for the rest of your paragraph, bullshit. Regarding the Palestinians who were never a nation - while there is a certain amount of truth to that argument, the problem (from your perspective) is that it strongly reinforces the European view of the conflict as a neo-colonial one, in which a Western "nation" established itself in a lesser-developed non-Western region, where the local population hadn't yet reached the same level of nationhood, so to speak, as in Western countries.

The second problem is that while one can deny that there was such a thing as a Palestinian people - or, more accurately, that there might not have been such a thing as a Palestinian people by 1947 if not for the growing Jewish presence in that area - one can hardly deny that there was such a thing as an Arab people, of which a part lived in that area. The argument then seems to boil down to "it's fine to confiscate a part of another nation's country, as long as you don't take all of it" - but that would be more convincing if the people using such arguments showed any willingness to put that into practice with their own land. Just as an example, would those people be willing to return Arizona or California to Mexico, since after all that's just a small part of the USA, and there are tons of Mexicans there already?

Lastly, well, I already covered that, but let me phrase it a different way that perhaps will be more convincing: Jewish history is far too rich and varied to be presented in the simplistic way you are doing here, and you are doing a huge injustice to the likes of Moses Maimonides, Baruch Spinoza, Moses Mendelssohn, Samuel HaNagid, and the millions upon millions of other prominent or less prominent Jews of the diaspora - some of them with an interest in returning to Eretz Israel, others with none whatsoever. They deserve a lot better than to be abused by Christian propagandists who have replaced their predecessors' anti-Semitism by a kind of perverted philo-Semitism which, while obviously not remotely as bad, still shares the same characteristic of using the Jewish people as an eschatological pawn rather than appreciating them for their own sake.

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Those morons in Gaza (i.e., Hamas) are at it again - - 18/07/2014 04:02:57 PM 1149 Views
If by awesome you mean execrable, then yes, you're right. - 18/07/2014 11:45:53 PM 654 Views
Sounds like someone doesn't like jews! - 19/07/2014 04:24:41 AM 586 Views
It's funny you should say that. - 19/07/2014 09:36:57 AM 667 Views
your criticism would be better applied to Palestine supporters - 19/07/2014 11:50:37 AM 568 Views
My criticism IS also applied to Palestine supporters. It's not an either/or deal. - 19/07/2014 09:03:51 PM 596 Views
Agreed on that much, certainly. - 23/07/2014 03:05:22 AM 721 Views
Well, look who's back in the game! - 23/07/2014 07:44:45 PM 820 Views
Haltingly.... - 07/08/2014 03:41:06 AM 646 Views
The only good thing about ancient interminable wars is that--more-- - 13/06/2015 11:40:48 PM 502 Views
Oh lord. - 22/06/2015 10:08:22 PM 570 Views
"'Dialing for Dollars' is looking for me" - 24/06/2015 04:48:51 AM 644 Views
At the risk of prompting another long ramble, I've no idea what that reference is to. - 24/06/2015 10:39:42 PM 529 Views
"Oh, Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz?!" - 26/06/2015 12:41:48 PM 505 Views
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I couldn't help but overhear... - 19/07/2014 01:13:01 PM 641 Views
Good, I was hoping you'd drop by! - 19/07/2014 08:33:44 PM 756 Views
I strongly beg to differ with your position re: Hamas - 26/07/2014 04:25:54 PM 521 Views
Sorry, I don't see that. - 26/07/2014 08:57:08 PM 608 Views
I guess if you believe the lies of Hamas your position makes sense. - 27/07/2014 03:20:03 PM 553 Views
+1 - 27/07/2014 04:00:05 PM 625 Views
I certainly don't believe everything they say, no. - 27/07/2014 06:43:51 PM 631 Views
the carrot and stick is somewhat apt, although israel should have given way more carrots to date - 22/07/2014 08:57:13 PM 655 Views
So Israel should back the least radical Palestinian faction & construct Palestinian infrastructure? - 23/07/2014 04:51:19 AM 615 Views
yes - 23/07/2014 05:04:58 PM 767 Views
I pretty much agree with everything you said. - 24/07/2014 09:46:22 AM 739 Views
Why do you hate America? - 23/07/2014 02:29:24 AM 621 Views
Bottom line - stop lobbing missles into Israel and the problem is solved. - 28/07/2014 03:35:46 AM 541 Views
It's a circle of violence. Both sides are the villian. - 31/07/2014 03:50:52 AM 656 Views

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