Active Users:1091 Time:22/11/2024 07:20:02 PM
Why on earth would we want them shooting "those lunatics"? Legolas Send a noteboard - 17/08/2013 09:46:58 PM

View original postI agree that Egypt won't erupt into a full-scale civil war. Enough of the Mubarak apparatus is still in place that in the next few weeks tens of thousands of Brotherhood supporters will be in jail, the ones that aren't will realize that each "day of rage" is just going to end up in more of their supporters dead, and we'll be back to a happy level of security in Egypt. If that doesn't happen, I'm more than satisfied that the police and army can kill enough bad guys until we get there, sooner or later. It might take a year. Either way, the risk of a Brotherhood-controlled Egypt is a thing of the past as long as our leaders don't get stupid and forget that we WANT them shooting those lunatics. If they need to kill 10,000, they should kill 10,000. If they need to get rid of a million, send them the bullets and let them do it.

The endgoal is a working democracy, remember? A bloodbath that creates thousands of martyrs really won't persuade the rest that clearly they were wrong about Islam and they should become secular instead. Apart from which, improving the Egyptian economy will require breaking the corrupt strangehold of the armed forces on many sectors, yet another reason why the army's new power grab was not a good thing for Egypt (I can understand the stance that it was the lesser of two evils, though I don't think I agree, but it certainly was a long way from good).

We all agree about the endgoal, or near enough - a democratic Egypt that respects minority rights and has a less corrupt, robust economy that can provide work for the young unemployed masses. Turkey on the Nile, essentially - of course Turkey isn't perfect, but if Egypt can get where Turkey is now within a decade or two, it would be an impressive achievement. I doubt anyone has an infallible strategy to reach that goal, I certainly don't claim to have one, but what they're doing now is clearly not the solution. Even if you think the coup really was necessary, things should have been handled better after that. Why is Morsi still locked in some secret prison? He should have been released weeks ago, and if they felt that that's too dangerous (though I don't see that - he would've been inclined to make a lot of noise just as the MB is doing without him now, sure, but this kind of escalation would not have been in his interest, and one of the major justifications for it wouldn't have been there), then fine, exile him, like Shinawatra. And then those other provocations, and the live rounds in cases where they really weren't necessary. The army seems to think like you, that if they kill enough of the most vocal ones, the rest will somehow change their mind. Considering how the MB has been using their martyrized icon Qutb for half a century, you would think they'd know better.

View original postAs far as Lebanon goes, no, they ARE that stupid, or rather, they've let themselves forget things. Nasrallah really opened the door to it all when he went "all in" on helping Assad hold onto power. It will degenerate from where it is now. It may not look like the previous civil war - in fact, much of it will probably play out near the Syrian border - but I think it almost certainly will end up getting violent and dangerous in Lebanon in a way it hasn't been.

Ah, in that sense. That sounds more plausible, yes, but so far it seems like the anti-Hezbollah violence in Lebanon is coming from the Syrian rebels, rather than from the Lebanese themselves. I think both Hezbollah and their opponents in Lebanon (or the leaders of their opponents, anyway) realize quite well that they have every interest in keeping the Syrian conflict out of Lebanon. For now, at least - who knows how things will turn out in the longer term.
View original postWith Iraq, the Sunnis have been waiting and gathering strength ever since the US left. It is highly likely that if the Shias keep trying to run things the way they have, the country will fracture. Kurdistan is already an independent nation for all intents and purposes, and they are likely to merge with the Kurdish parts of Syria and just break away from the whole damn mess. Then the Sunnis and Shias fight over the rest of Iraqo-Syria-Lebanon.

Iraqi Kurdistan breaking away is plausible enough, agreed, and then they might as well incorporate the Kurdish part of Syria, although that will make Turkey extremely nervous for understandable reasons. I could see a break-up between the Iraqi Shi'ites and Sunnites as well, but I don't really see Iraq and Syria (let alone Lebanon) flowing into each other like that. For one thing, the Syrian "Shi'ites" are Alawites, who don't have that much in common with the Iraqi or Iranian Ithna'ashariyya, and I'm not sure why the Iraqi Sunnis would want to join up with their Syrian brethren, either. Sure, those Alawites get military support from Iran and Hezbollah, but then Hamas gets military support from Iran and Hezbollah, and they're Sunnites. There's a rather big difference between offering military support to a country or a population group for politico-religious reasons, and wanting to enter into a union with them.

Reply to message
What the hell is happening in Egypt? *NM* - 15/08/2013 05:32:29 PM 495 Views
A small(ish) civil war. - 15/08/2013 06:45:29 PM 596 Views
Hmmm. - 15/08/2013 07:02:38 PM 531 Views
These states' borders are the key. - 15/08/2013 07:16:04 PM 581 Views
Exactly what everyone knew would happen. *NM* - 15/08/2013 10:35:08 PM 277 Views
+1 *NM* - 15/08/2013 11:12:45 PM 264 Views
Yes. *NM* - 16/08/2013 05:07:44 PM 212 Views
+3 *NM* - 16/08/2013 10:19:46 PM 200 Views
Everyone hates each other. - 16/08/2013 05:18:54 PM 516 Views
That's awfully apocalyptic, don't you think? - 16/08/2013 07:34:12 PM 578 Views
No. - 17/08/2013 07:45:27 PM 598 Views
Why on earth would we want them shooting "those lunatics"? - 17/08/2013 09:46:58 PM 508 Views
A working democracy? How quaintly utopian. - 18/08/2013 05:00:10 AM 563 Views
You are confusing religous people with religous nations. *NM* - 17/08/2013 08:32:55 PM 229 Views

Reply to Message