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"Love your brother as you love yourself" is about self-improvement? Joel Send a noteboard - 14/08/2013 02:02:22 PM

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And lethal force is NOT OK to protect property (since "life is of the highest value," and so trumps property)? Yeah, try again.

I would like to point out that two of the Ten Commandments cover protection of property and only one protects life.


According to Jesus, the GREATEST commandment is to love God with all our being, "and the second is like unto it, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.'" It is often noted that positive verson of "do not do to others what you would not want to experience" originates with the Judeo-Christian religions; it is kind of a big deal. Remember, Christ called it "like unto" the Greatest Commandment. Loving and demonstrating Gods creation AS His creation, especially our fellow men, is the chief practical means of loving and demonstrating their Creator.
View original postIt's more like "MY property is more important than YOUR life, Mr. Thief." Conservatism and Christianity are highly individualistic philosophies. Even the exhortation to love one another and give alms to the poor is more in the life of self-improvement than actually being invested in the fates of others. Your salvation is only and entirely about you and no one else. A happy ending for a Christian is going to heaven, regardless of whatever else happens to anyone else you love. Your parents, spouse and kids all being damned doesn't mean anything next to your own salvation. Such choices being strictly hypothetical of course, since there is no way to buy salvation at anyone else's expense, but at its core, Christianity is extremely individualistic, which is why it overlaps so much with conservatism.

It is impossible to love God and hate ones brother; I believe John said anyone who claims to do both is a liar, so mouthing prayers and attending services without service work is pointless. Anyone who thinks that the path to salvation is deluding themselves; self-delusion is an oddly self-destructive way to define self-improvement. Christianity definitely has significant individualist aspects, but it is more accurately called a PERSONAL than individualist faith. We are not to be indifferent to either the temporal or spiritual fates of others, else there would be no Great Commission: We simply have no power or right to DECIDE it; they must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling—or not—just as we must.

Christianity, incidentally, is apolitical, and not just because Christs kingdom is not of this carnal world (though that would be more than sufficient reason.) The first apostles sold all their goods, gave to the poor and held everything in common; not exactly laissez-faire capitalism. Christ on Earth was so anti-establishment the Jewish church and Roman state put aside the mortal antagonism that would destroy Jerusalem forty years later, and proceeded to execute Him despite knowing Him innocent of any crime, much less one deserving death. Note, that is not an attempt to say, "No, Jesus is a liberal, not a conservative." Jesus is neither; it is a bit like when Treebeard is asked whose side he is on and responds he is on no ones side because no one is on his.

Anyway, yes, the Torah forbids theft and the NT reaffirms that prohibition, but even the former (harsh as it often is by todays standards) does not decree DEATH for theft. Skipping church, nonmarital sex, sassing ones parents, sure, but not theft. If one takes the position life is SUPREMELY sacred, preventing theft is by definition an inferior cause (supremacy is inherently unique) insufficient for killing: The only acceptable cause is defending life, either by preventing or directly deterring its taking. Otherwise, life is not supremely sacred, and selectively calling it so only when justifying a given predetermined act is hypocritical falsehood. That does not vindicate one position or the other, but does demand CONSISTENT adherence to whichever chosen.

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This message last edited by Joel on 14/08/2013 at 02:03:49 PM
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