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We? I don't feel I'm in dangerous territory at all Isaac Send a noteboard - 24/07/2013 08:10:24 PM

View original postI do not have the time or inclination to bring in all the (relatively) objective studies which show that blacks are disproportionately sentenced and convicted in the US in comparison with whites.

That's not how it works, especially after your last citation got flipped and used against you. Besides, I'm familiar with some of those studies and while many do raise real concerns about black vs white conviction rates none suggest anything that could result in even double, let alone 3 or 5 times as much. There's no reason to believe a white person who commits a felony is convicted less than 20% as often as a black person.

Now as to those studies, many are damaged, or report very minor differences, once one factors out variables beyond skin color, it often appears otherwise because many other relevant factors like wealth, education, etc are also often statistically related to skin color.


My big problem from the beginning is that black people are thought of as criminals, to which you respond to the effect of "statistically this is true". The reason I say this is getting into dangerous territory is because I do not want to believe that I am arguing why racial profiling is bad with someone who is potentially racist themselves.

Objective analysis of data make me 'potentially racist now?


I will not accuse you of racist behaviour

You just did


but I am slightly disturbed at the fact that you are trying to justify a fear of black people

No, you have a belief you are tied to, and thus my challenging that belief is seen as justifying a fear of black people. You arrive at this conclusion in spite of my saying I believe the justice system does discriminate against blacks, just not to the degree you claim. My own stance is a very easy one, I believe that many things can predispose people toward criminal behavior, poverty, being surrounded by other criminals or those who feel oppressed by the system, education, these things all factor in. Hell, music and culture glamorizing criminal behavior, very common in many youth-targeted art and entertainment but especially in those focused on urban youth sub-cultures (not just rap, but its a big one) play a role, albeit a 1st amendment protected role, in shaping youth behavior and subsequent crime rates. Racism is likely in there too, in many fashions, from the police and jury maybe suspecting a black person more to a young black man believing his crimes are justified because the world is unfair to him and he has few options and no moral requirement to obey the laws of a system he feels discriminates against him. Same as a country music song might glamorizing drunken brawls and a rap song might glamorize drug dealing, criminal or reckless behavior is often encouraged in various ways in various audiences. Same, being from a broken and poor home where you routinely see others better off either being white or criminal might incline a non-white to crime. But these are factors increasing the likelihood of committing a crime, not just of being seen by the police or a jury as more likely to have done so.

These are all factors, and many more, it is you, not I, over-simplifying this.


-- and young black males in particular -- when my entire reason for getting into this dialogue (over two separate threads now) was to point out that this is an unfair stereotype which is also unnecessary. If giving black people the same right to exist as everyone else in America is so unpalatable to you,

It's a bad idea to accuse someone of being racist, then say you're not saying that, then saying it again all in one paragraph. Damages credibility with the audience especially as it comes across as an attempt at a subtle accusation that very much isn't, implying you think other people reading this are stupid.


then I highly doubt any statistics I can bring to bear will sway you to think otherwise.

Also a bad move, with the audience, as regular posters on this site go I'm probably at or near the bottom of the list of people one can credibly advance that argument against. That I am not swayed by hard data. Not usually an effective argument against someone most of the audience knows is a scientist and statistician. I am expected to challenge data-based claims just on general principle, and routinely do so here.


At any rate, it is just as difficult to prove an institutional racism

Traditionally if something is difficult to prove it is considered inappropriate to claim it as fact so ironclad that even disputing it is grounds to accuse someone of racism.


(such as exists in the US criminal justice system) as it is to prove anyone will die of old age, or your other examples. The only thing I ask, and have been asking, is that people stop automatically assuming that black people have no right to exist as US citizens before being stereotyped into a role for which they probably do not belong.

The problem here is that, again, you are accusing people of racism because of their failure to accept your claims as proven fact even though you have just admitted they aren't proven. You're also accusing most of the population of thinking black people 'have no right to exist', which is a stance somewhere past even the KKK, who just want them to exist in another place or as second class citizens. That's a hell of a stance to take, that most people are worse than the frickin' Klan.


I apologize for giving what amounts to a cop-out to your request for more statistical data, but I literally do not have time to dig into things and get into a statistical show-down over this point right now.

Oh no need, you've done a better job arguing against your position then I have, I'd say. Besides a 'cop out' would be your very first sentence and nothing else. About not having the time or inclination to present evidence of your claims, everything after that was just weak attempts at slandering me, not usually a feature of the 'cop out'. Also, while not having the time to research is legit grounds to withdraw, it doesn't let you claim your point has been proven.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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so she did - 19/07/2013 01:08:08 PM 526 Views
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It's a combination of even more guns in circulation and no duty to retreat if you feel threatened - 18/07/2013 09:13:47 PM 514 Views
blacks are incarcerated at a higher rate because they commit crime at a higher rate - 19/07/2013 04:31:06 AM 540 Views
[citation needed] - 19/07/2013 06:12:04 PM 481 Views
Don't be tedious, such a claim is unprovable but also the most logical inference - 19/07/2013 07:10:22 PM 541 Views
If logic says so, then obviously that must be the only course of action possible.... - 19/07/2013 07:44:44 PM 625 Views
Um, how'd you get that out of my remarks? - 19/07/2013 08:48:09 PM 508 Views
Honestly, I feel like we are getting into some dangerous territory here - 24/07/2013 06:25:15 PM 586 Views
I wonder what we can call the racism version of Godwinning. - 24/07/2013 07:01:20 PM 509 Views
Reductio ad Racism maybe? *NM* - 24/07/2013 08:16:28 PM 239 Views
We? I don't feel I'm in dangerous territory at all - 24/07/2013 08:10:24 PM 456 Views
lets look at your numbers becuase they are interesting - 20/07/2013 03:25:31 PM 509 Views

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