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I just want to comment on two points from your reply Jay Sherman Send a noteboard - 19/07/2013 09:47:06 PM

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The jury has no reason to contemplate a dead person's right to self-defense, it is irrelevant, they are not on trial. As I've repeatedly said, multiple self-defense claims can exist without being contradictory. It wouldn't matter in the least if the victim had no harmful intent and was attacking in clear self-defense. Though admittedly a jury might swing on that, and the defendant if we still had hangings. What matters is if the defendant believed their life was in peril and if that was reasonable. Again, two guys here cries for help, here a dangerous madman with a gun has run into that abandoned warehouse, both run in, both turn a corner, both see a man with a gun, both had self-defense rights and neither was acting with any criminal intent, at the survivors trial all that matters is his right to self-defense. You seem to almost consciously avoid this line of reasoning.

If the jury has no reason to contemplate the victim's right to self-defense, then there is no purpose to a trial. Everyone who claims self-defense can just go home, nothing to see here. The reason I say this is because establishing why the victim got into the situation where the defendant felt they needed to kill is a key to setting up the motive of the killer. If the killer makes the first physical contact, they are supposed to be declared the aggressor and therefore have no right to a self-defense justification. Therefore, by not deciding if the victim has a right to self-defense in such a situation, we are using the killer's narrative as the basis for deciding if the killer is guilty or not. As we keep coming back to it, killers will lie if they think they can get away with it. Therefore the killer's testimony should be analyzed to make sure that the victim was justifiably defending themselves against the killer, and did not just coincidentally happen to do something so terrible that the killer had justification for self-defense claims.


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Example: If I follow you and, without identifying myself or my intentions, try to chase you down simply for walking home from the store, am I acting aggressively?

The answer is: It depends, depends on a lot of things, and since it does, the answer can be no or yes. It will depend on the individual being approached, the approaching person's manner, where and when we are, and many other factors. One big one, I wouldn't assume someone was chasing me down simply for walking home from a store unless they had been tailing me since I left the store.


Continuing the hypothetical: If someone follows you for several blocks in their car while you are walking back to someone else's house which is not your own (friend, relative, etc -- this is because you are, for whatever reason, not in your normal neighbourhood), and they do not identify themselves but instead keep slowly following you in their car. At a certain point, they get out of their car and begin walking your direction, quickly trying to close the gap between the two of you. When they reach you, their first question is "What are you doing around here?" Now, is this hypothetical person behaving aggressively? If the answer is yes, then the definition of "aggressor" needs to be changed as I said before. If the answer is no, I'd like to know why.

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Zimmerman = Not Guilty - 14/07/2013 04:04:07 AM 1850 Views
Any charge, other than stupidity, was rediculous. *NM* - 14/07/2013 04:24:09 AM 532 Views
Stupidity+Death= Manslaughter *NM* - 14/07/2013 05:27:39 AM 503 Views
But hey... - 14/07/2013 05:35:11 AM 1072 Views
And THAT is the scary precendent this case sets for the populace - 14/07/2013 05:28:03 PM 1201 Views
Oh puhleeze... can you get any more rediculous? *NM* - 14/07/2013 07:22:52 PM 656 Views
HyogaRott baby, you are hurting me here. Can you please stop this? - 14/07/2013 11:29:00 PM 959 Views
If inline spellcheck doesn't catch it, I probably won't either. - 15/07/2013 06:29:29 AM 910 Views
Re: And THAT is the scary precendent this case sets for the populace - 14/07/2013 07:32:26 PM 1008 Views
you really are small minded little bigot - 15/07/2013 03:57:01 AM 977 Views
+1 - Seriously has imlad always been this nuts? *NM* - 15/07/2013 04:32:33 AM 564 Views
Your reply is partisan and obnoxious. - 15/07/2013 02:15:13 PM 978 Views
So it was okay that he was on top of a guy, pounding his head into the pavement? - 14/07/2013 06:45:17 PM 942 Views
If you can believe Zimmerman's side of the story is 100% truth, I have a bridge for sale... - 15/07/2013 05:35:08 PM 1071 Views
do you have actual evidence to support zimmerman lied? *NM* - 16/07/2013 05:43:42 PM 533 Views
Sure - 16/07/2013 06:49:20 PM 861 Views
Re: Sure - 16/07/2013 07:53:27 PM 1012 Views
Re: Sure - 16/07/2013 10:07:13 PM 1059 Views
Re: Sure - 17/07/2013 03:26:15 AM 998 Views
The kid decided to beat a man who had a gun and got shot for it - 15/07/2013 03:46:38 AM 965 Views
In a sane world, here is how their interaction plays out - 15/07/2013 05:44:26 PM 918 Views
Yes. And the fact that he didn't simply ask him what he was doing, tells me he was racial profiling - 15/07/2013 08:59:41 PM 915 Views
The only way that statement makes sense is if it is sarcasm - 16/07/2013 12:46:59 PM 853 Views
And tomorrow I get to preach about the Good Samaritan. - 14/07/2013 05:26:50 AM 1131 Views
Where's your forgiveness?? Judge not lest ye be judged. - 14/07/2013 07:10:14 PM 898 Views
Did I say a thing about Zimmerman? No. - 14/07/2013 08:44:26 PM 1037 Views
Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. Which neighborhood watch were you referring to? - 15/07/2013 12:46:44 AM 1018 Views
Float your concept of grace in front of your priest sometime. - 15/07/2013 04:31:34 AM 884 Views
Danny... - 15/07/2013 01:32:03 PM 945 Views
You'd think the rain of venom in here would make everyone's soapbox too slippery to stand on - 15/07/2013 01:05:41 PM 925 Views
+1 *NM* - 15/07/2013 06:40:15 PM 588 Views
would that be true for most of politics as well? *NM* - 16/07/2013 12:58:33 PM 552 Views
Depends on the case, but those aren't individual life and death criminal trials - 16/07/2013 01:52:00 PM 836 Views
when the president gets involved it is safe to polotics are at play. - 16/07/2013 06:23:54 PM 895 Views
That's not an unfair remark but it justifies criticizing him, not also getting involved in the case - 16/07/2013 06:59:53 PM 909 Views
When a case shows glaring holes in the law, it should by nature cause those laws to be reconsidered - 16/07/2013 07:18:57 PM 984 Views
I'm not sure what those 'glaring holes' are, but a specific person shouldn't be needed to show them - 16/07/2013 08:18:38 PM 893 Views
It is a bit difficult to not use the case when the specificity of the case is the problem.... - 16/07/2013 11:06:59 PM 969 Views
I sympathize with that but I think it remains a moral necessity to do so - 17/07/2013 12:14:39 AM 1042 Views
Re: I sympathize with that but I think it remains a moral necessity to do so - 17/07/2013 05:29:56 PM 1023 Views
I think you've over-personalized this case - 17/07/2013 08:00:50 PM 985 Views
I think this case is simply the closest example at hand of a perceived lack of justice - 17/07/2013 10:34:38 PM 1009 Views
Re: I think this case is simply the closest example at hand of a perceived lack of justice - 18/07/2013 01:39:17 AM 1153 Views
Jury instructions - 18/07/2013 04:12:29 AM 1102 Views
Jury Instructions 2 - 18/07/2013 06:22:33 PM 959 Views
I just want to comment on two points from your reply - 19/07/2013 09:47:06 PM 856 Views
I'm pretty throughly exhausted of this - 19/07/2013 10:46:22 PM 958 Views
Nice. - 16/07/2013 09:01:50 PM 1057 Views
Thanks - 16/07/2013 09:48:00 PM 886 Views
Well said. - 17/07/2013 02:25:36 PM 1053 Views
it is possible to discuss a case based on what the evidence shows - 17/07/2013 06:03:05 PM 1006 Views
Of course it is possible, one just fails to see how it can serve any good end - 17/07/2013 09:43:02 PM 902 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 18/07/2013 02:08:25 AM 616 Views
That just brings us full circle to my orignal reply to you - 18/07/2013 02:52:15 AM 942 Views
Re: That just brings us full circle to my orignal reply to you - 18/07/2013 04:09:51 AM 1049 Views
are agree with your general concept - 18/07/2013 05:20:41 PM 1189 Views
Good. - 15/07/2013 02:11:12 PM 872 Views
Perhaps one day black people will have the same rights as whites in the US - 15/07/2013 05:30:00 PM 1040 Views
Congratulations on making one of the dumbest statemets of the year. *NM* - 15/07/2013 09:00:46 PM 597 Views
You have tried retroatcively making Martin a criminal here, despite him doing nothing wrong - 15/07/2013 10:52:32 PM 927 Views
So you support attacking creepy crackers who you think are following you? - 16/07/2013 12:56:52 PM 916 Views
The law suggests that if I fear for my safety, I am justified in attacking first in self-defense - 18/07/2013 11:00:58 PM 1011 Views
there is zero evidience to support that assumption - 19/07/2013 04:25:15 AM 857 Views
Let's see - Martin was using drugs..... - 16/07/2013 04:56:13 PM 906 Views
Does that mean he should have been hunted down and shot? *NM* - 16/07/2013 05:22:43 PM 549 Views
He wasn't, so your question is irrelevant. - 16/07/2013 05:37:27 PM 839 Views

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