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Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts Send a noteboard - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM

They were some ruthless bastards without a doubt. I was sinply objecting the over simplified notion that one day the Crusders just up and decided to attack the poor Muslims who were minding their business.

The other point I was trying to make is that the West and the Middle started off on fairly even footing and Islam was slowing left behind as the European society grew in leaps and bounds. As you mentioned these cultures interacted to fair degree why did the Muslims nations get left so far behind? It was not becuase they were colonized.

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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2924 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 927 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 829 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 895 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1417 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. Hieshyn - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1522 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 844 Views
FALSE! Dannymac - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1527 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1483 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1712 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1514 Views
...I can think of a rather larger difference. Starts with J and ends with S. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/05/2013 11:54:28 PM 931 Views
Yeah, but not really, both religions acknowledge his existence, but differ on his role. HyogaRott - 29/05/2013 06:00:03 PM 1504 Views
Net result: All of God's children can enter into Heaven. Hieshyn - 30/05/2013 05:26:20 PM 1730 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1794 Views
Ok....and? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1365 Views
You asked for an example, I gave one. I'm not here to argue with you. *NM* Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 02:57:27 AM 858 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 887 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1442 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 921 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1492 Views
LOL. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1425 Views
Violence.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1458 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 1299 Views
You are something... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1367 Views
We've gone from "Where does Christianity call for violence?" to "not all violence is bad." *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:09:30 PM 916 Views
To be fair, that is a good journey to make. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:51:17 AM 1415 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 890 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1359 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1432 Views
Yes. nossy - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1366 Views
Re: Yes. Isaac - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1432 Views
Congratulations; you now understand why (or one reason) my posts tend to run long. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:53:24 AM 1636 Views
You know better than that. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1432 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion Isaac - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1513 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 824 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way Isaac - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1388 Views
... ? *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 872 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* Isaac - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 822 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. Cannoli - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1406 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry snoopcester - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1294 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1477 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. Nebhead - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1418 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1428 Views
Your argument is logically flawed Tom - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1508 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1519 Views
No, it actaully does not. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1480 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up Nighthawk - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 1326 Views
Exactly HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1417 Views
Couple of things nossy - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1762 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1579 Views
Well, "consistent" doesn't mean "never says things HyogaRott doesn't support." nossy - 23/05/2013 09:46:51 PM 1373 Views
There is a difference between putting forth a good PR spin occasionally and making a stand. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:55:48 AM 1403 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1435 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... Isaac - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1434 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1454 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1305 Views
That's a shame. Legolas - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 1268 Views
Re: That's a shame. Isaac - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1318 Views
Re: That's a shame. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 1268 Views
Sure, I'll bite. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1456 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1350 Views
I hope you like black and white. nossy - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 1288 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1364 Views
I think I must have confused you. nossy - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 1272 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1346 Views
Not really HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1374 Views
Yawn. Bored now. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 1302 Views
whatever *NM* HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 764 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? Joel - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1621 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. Stephen - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1487 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here Tom - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1701 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 1294 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. Tom - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1397 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1370 Views
Excellent post - anyone that thinks all religions are the same is a complete moron. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:32:26 AM 1530 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1539 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* ironclad - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 768 Views
I agree. *NM* Stephen - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 833 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1473 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1378 Views
The first step on the road to recovery is aknowledging your responsibility for where you are and do HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:22:42 PM 1354 Views
Oh, so its our fault... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1360 Views
It's always our fault *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 956 Views
In general, I agree nossy - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1516 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? Legolas - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1368 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 883 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1443 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1281 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1508 Views
Exactly. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1414 Views
Hyperbole? nossy - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 1259 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1538 Views
No, I really don't think so. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1327 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1301 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. Legolas - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1457 Views
It's accurate. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 851 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. nossy - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1354 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1464 Views
Hm nossy - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1432 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1444 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1390 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 829 Views
No ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1443 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1403 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1376 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 876 Views
I already knew ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1321 Views
Just about every group has historically oppressed and BEEN oppressed at some time. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:00:54 AM 1450 Views
No. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1350 Views
Oh, I don't think he's talking about past "colonialism" only. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:18:11 AM 1363 Views
Possibly. Some people do, to be sure, and there is some truth in that view. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:27:36 AM 1273 Views
What a load of bullshit. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1349 Views
I don't think you can reasonably claim to separate Salafi thought from the geopolitics of the time. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:23:03 PM 1384 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1501 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers random thoughts - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1485 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. Legolas - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1318 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1447 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* Legolas - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 804 Views
No, it had a bunch of opportunistic brown folks systematically dismantling it for centuries. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:43:00 AM 1385 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1383 Views
Well yes. nossy - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1335 Views
I would prefer to say that random thoughts - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1525 Views
Of course you would. nossy - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1438 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1519 Views
Ok. nossy - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1528 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1746 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1582 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. snoopcester - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1437 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? ßelals Girl - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1423 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 863 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 798 Views
Statistically snoopcester - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1496 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1482 Views
Hardly any snoopcester - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1605 Views
Your solution is profiling...because it's time to *stop* thinking all folks are the same? *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 02:36:32 PM 775 Views
I don't think we've ever encouraged people to think all folks are the same Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:29:54 PM 1295 Views
"Perhaps it's time to stop thinking all folks are the same?" ~A2k Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 07:49:12 PM 1299 Views
I think he's pointing to the encuragement of willful blindedness with that remark Isaac - 23/05/2013 08:15:55 PM 1348 Views
I think probably not. nossy - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1389 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 791 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 788 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 780 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1307 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 827 Views
Yes, he did. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1353 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 823 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 1275 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. nossy - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1419 Views
You mean like this? Larry - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1482 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid random thoughts - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1313 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 820 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such Larry - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1389 Views
Yes it does. Anonymous2000 - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1386 Views
*sigh* Larry - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1261 Views
I think asking most Americans for recognition of a non-binary political paradigm is a bit much. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:16:30 AM 831 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 1308 Views
no but they do tell a story random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 1228 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1395 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* Stephen - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 818 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1575 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? dart_board - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 2106 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1455 Views
Just as a little aside Tom - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1328 Views
Ever helpful. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1525 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 2099 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1491 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 2084 Views
I'm having warm feelings. nossy - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1468 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. dart_board - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1895 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " Joel - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1716 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* Dan - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 1094 Views
How much did you miss it, really? Joel - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1412 Views
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