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Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts Send a noteboard - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM

They were some ruthless bastards without a doubt. I was sinply objecting the over simplified notion that one day the Crusders just up and decided to attack the poor Muslims who were minding their business.

The other point I was trying to make is that the West and the Middle started off on fairly even footing and Islam was slowing left behind as the European society grew in leaps and bounds. As you mentioned these cultures interacted to fair degree why did the Muslims nations get left so far behind? It was not becuase they were colonized.

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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2890 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 890 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 810 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 866 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1379 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. Hieshyn - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1472 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 816 Views
FALSE! Dannymac - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1490 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1436 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1670 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1462 Views
...I can think of a rather larger difference. Starts with J and ends with S. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/05/2013 11:54:28 PM 899 Views
Yeah, but not really, both religions acknowledge his existence, but differ on his role. HyogaRott - 29/05/2013 06:00:03 PM 1453 Views
Net result: All of God's children can enter into Heaven. Hieshyn - 30/05/2013 05:26:20 PM 1667 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1753 Views
Ok....and? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1316 Views
You asked for an example, I gave one. I'm not here to argue with you. *NM* Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 02:57:27 AM 840 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 858 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1393 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 898 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1441 Views
LOL. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1380 Views
Violence.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1422 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 1241 Views
You are something... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1307 Views
We've gone from "Where does Christianity call for violence?" to "not all violence is bad." *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:09:30 PM 885 Views
To be fair, that is a good journey to make. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:51:17 AM 1356 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 869 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1310 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1394 Views
Yes. nossy - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1316 Views
Re: Yes. Isaac - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1368 Views
Congratulations; you now understand why (or one reason) my posts tend to run long. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:53:24 AM 1595 Views
You know better than that. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1373 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion Isaac - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1459 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 801 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way Isaac - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1334 Views
... ? *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 846 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* Isaac - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 794 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. Cannoli - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1359 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry snoopcester - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1254 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1435 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. Nebhead - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1371 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1384 Views
Your argument is logically flawed Tom - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1460 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1474 Views
No, it actaully does not. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1443 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up Nighthawk - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 1272 Views
Exactly HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1373 Views
Couple of things nossy - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1706 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1528 Views
Well, "consistent" doesn't mean "never says things HyogaRott doesn't support." nossy - 23/05/2013 09:46:51 PM 1330 Views
There is a difference between putting forth a good PR spin occasionally and making a stand. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:55:48 AM 1363 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1396 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... Isaac - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1382 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1408 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1260 Views
That's a shame. Legolas - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 1205 Views
Re: That's a shame. Isaac - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1277 Views
Re: That's a shame. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 1222 Views
Sure, I'll bite. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1401 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1304 Views
I hope you like black and white. nossy - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 1246 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1323 Views
I think I must have confused you. nossy - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 1225 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1298 Views
Not really HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1331 Views
Yawn. Bored now. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 1251 Views
whatever *NM* HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 737 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? Joel - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1581 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. Stephen - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1438 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here Tom - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1656 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 1241 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. Tom - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1369 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1329 Views
Excellent post - anyone that thinks all religions are the same is a complete moron. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:32:26 AM 1484 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1485 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* ironclad - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 745 Views
I agree. *NM* Stephen - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 804 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1436 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1319 Views
The first step on the road to recovery is aknowledging your responsibility for where you are and do HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:22:42 PM 1296 Views
Oh, so its our fault... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1312 Views
It's always our fault *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 935 Views
In general, I agree nossy - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1477 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? Legolas - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1322 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 858 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1399 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1240 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1458 Views
Exactly. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1371 Views
Hyperbole? nossy - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 1207 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1479 Views
No, I really don't think so. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1273 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1249 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. Legolas - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1418 Views
It's accurate. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 829 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. nossy - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1311 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1427 Views
Hm nossy - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1374 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1403 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1349 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 804 Views
No ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1398 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1352 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1325 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 854 Views
I already knew ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1287 Views
Just about every group has historically oppressed and BEEN oppressed at some time. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:00:54 AM 1410 Views
No. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1310 Views
Oh, I don't think he's talking about past "colonialism" only. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:18:11 AM 1323 Views
Possibly. Some people do, to be sure, and there is some truth in that view. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:27:36 AM 1217 Views
What a load of bullshit. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1313 Views
I don't think you can reasonably claim to separate Salafi thought from the geopolitics of the time. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:23:03 PM 1343 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1456 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers random thoughts - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1436 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. Legolas - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1278 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1395 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* Legolas - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 788 Views
No, it had a bunch of opportunistic brown folks systematically dismantling it for centuries. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:43:00 AM 1334 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1323 Views
Well yes. nossy - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1282 Views
I would prefer to say that random thoughts - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1486 Views
Of course you would. nossy - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1401 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1476 Views
Ok. nossy - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1476 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1701 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1540 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. snoopcester - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1404 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? ßelals Girl - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1382 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 841 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 781 Views
Statistically snoopcester - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1456 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1442 Views
Hardly any snoopcester - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1562 Views
Your solution is profiling...because it's time to *stop* thinking all folks are the same? *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 02:36:32 PM 749 Views
I don't think we've ever encouraged people to think all folks are the same Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:29:54 PM 1260 Views
"Perhaps it's time to stop thinking all folks are the same?" ~A2k Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 07:49:12 PM 1252 Views
I think he's pointing to the encuragement of willful blindedness with that remark Isaac - 23/05/2013 08:15:55 PM 1286 Views
I think probably not. nossy - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1350 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 767 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 759 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 753 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1270 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 800 Views
Yes, he did. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1313 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 805 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 1239 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. nossy - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1369 Views
You mean like this? Larry - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1438 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid random thoughts - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1262 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 793 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such Larry - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1345 Views
Yes it does. Anonymous2000 - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1345 Views
*sigh* Larry - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1226 Views
I think asking most Americans for recognition of a non-binary political paradigm is a bit much. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:16:30 AM 805 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 1243 Views
no but they do tell a story random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 1185 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1366 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* Stephen - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 799 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1535 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? dart_board - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 2066 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1412 Views
Just as a little aside Tom - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1283 Views
Ever helpful. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1482 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 2040 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1435 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 2012 Views
I'm having warm feelings. nossy - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1428 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. dart_board - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1851 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " Joel - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1671 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* Dan - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 1070 Views
How much did you miss it, really? Joel - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1361 Views
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