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I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. Legolas Send a noteboard - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM

View original postThey were Imperialist from day one and took over a large chunk of the world enslaving people and supplementing their culture religion and language. The Caliph was a hereditary emperor and before the Mongrels attacked them they were actively trying to conquer all the Christian nations. They had a larger population and more advanced culture and they should have succeeded. One of the favorite whipping boys of the white guilt mindset, the Crusades, was a the direct result of Muslims attacking the Christian city of Constantinople and all the land fought over had previously belonged to Christians for hundreds of years before they were conquered by imperialist Muslims. Why so many people feel guilty over that is beyond.

They had a larger population after they'd already conquered gigantic swathes of Christian lands, yes... not before that. And while they were obviously still fighting on occasion with the Christians or trying to take over certain parts of Christian territory, I think we can agree the big wave of conquest ended a long time before the Mongols.

As for the Crusades, what you say is true as far as it goes, but ignores that the Muslims were hardly a monolithic community anymore by that point (to the extent they ever were), and the ones living in the Holy Land really weren't responsible for the aggressive attacks of the Seljuk Turks (who at that point had been Muslims for how long, half a century? if that?) against the Byzantines. In any case the Crusades weren't exactly a purely religious war - one can blame the Papacy for encouraging them, but at the end of the day the western Crusaders also attacked and murdered Byzantine Christians and Holy Land Christians, seeming to view them as little better than Muslims. And in the Holy Land during the Crusades, the same thing happened as what happened in any region where Muslims and Christians coexisted for any moderately long period of time, like Spain or the Byzantine heartlands: alliances were made across religious boundaries as the political situation required, and it was normal enough for Christians to join Muslims in a fight against other Christians, or the other way around.

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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2963 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 951 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 854 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 916 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1460 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1563 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 868 Views
FALSE! - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1574 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1523 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1749 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1552 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1838 Views
Ok....and? - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1410 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 909 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1489 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 943 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1533 Views
LOL. - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1466 Views
Violence.... - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1509 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 1342 Views
You are something... - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1409 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 910 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1395 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1471 Views
Yes. - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1404 Views
Re: Yes. - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1479 Views
You know better than that. - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1470 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1554 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 845 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1425 Views
... ? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 892 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 839 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1441 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1335 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1514 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1472 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1472 Views
Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1549 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1562 Views
No, it actaully does not. - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1526 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 1370 Views
Exactly - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1463 Views
Couple of things - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1804 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1615 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1478 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1475 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1499 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1345 Views
That's a shame. - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 1315 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1350 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 1309 Views
Sure, I'll bite. - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1505 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1401 Views
I hope you like black and white. - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 1328 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1409 Views
I think I must have confused you. - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 1316 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1383 Views
Not really - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1408 Views
Yawn. Bored now. - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 1366 Views
whatever *NM* - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 786 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1661 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1527 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1745 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 1338 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1443 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1410 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1592 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 793 Views
I agree. *NM* - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 858 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1517 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1430 Views
Oh, so its our fault... - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1393 Views
It's always our fault *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 988 Views
In general, I agree - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1560 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1426 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 907 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1479 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1319 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1544 Views
Exactly. - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1463 Views
Hyperbole? - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 1318 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1585 Views
No, I really don't think so. - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1371 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1339 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1511 Views
It's accurate. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 870 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1397 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1516 Views
Hm - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1469 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1488 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1426 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 854 Views
No - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1479 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1434 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1416 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 898 Views
I already knew - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1357 Views
No. - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1392 Views
What a load of bullshit. - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1394 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1543 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1519 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1376 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1484 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 829 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1424 Views
Well yes. - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1369 Views
I would prefer to say that - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1564 Views
Of course you would. - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1478 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1566 Views
Ok. - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1569 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1794 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1628 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1483 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1468 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 889 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 823 Views
Statistically - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1531 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1523 Views
Hardly any - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1652 Views
I think probably not. - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1429 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 819 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 806 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 815 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1357 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 852 Views
Yes, he did. - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1394 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 850 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 1328 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1453 Views
You mean like this? - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1538 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1373 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 837 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1423 Views
Yes it does. - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1427 Views
*sigh* - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1300 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 1344 Views
no but they do tell a story - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 1258 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1430 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 855 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1619 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 2154 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1494 Views
Just as a little aside - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1367 Views
Ever helpful. - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1568 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 2144 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1537 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 2118 Views
I'm having warm feelings. - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1521 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1937 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1755 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 1131 Views
How much did you miss it, really? - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1455 Views

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