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Re: That's a shame. Legolas Send a noteboard - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM

View original postWell let me add in a disclaimer, I am by no means claiming expertise in this area, quite the opposite, my time there and the circumstances around it result a fairly high degree of ambivalence, which doesn't make for fertile ground to cultivate objective thought in, to put it mildly.

True.
View original postYou're right that the contradiction is mostly at surface detail, the most obvious analogy I think would be the police, possibly a very apt one in other respects too. It is very easy for people to simultaneously positive and negative views on law enforcement, akin to the ambivalence I remarked on feeling, and for the police to feel the same way about their own beats. It is not at all uncommon for inner city leaders to praise law enforcement one moment then turn around and blame them for every problem and accuse them of exaggerated or even imaginary abuses. Depending on the individual this may be entirely logical and reasonable or outright cynical power games.

Agreed that that is an apt analogy. And yeah, some measure of cynical power games is logical and reasonable for anyone taking a political position, I'm afraid...
View original postThe tendency to use nationalism or traditionalism along with foreign or minority scapegoats to cover over rampant incompetence or corruption is, of course, hardly uncommon. Ditto the habit of glossing over the faults of enemy-of-my-enemy allies. Don't know if there's a Europe-wide generally-right pro-Israeli Hawk faction that might inspire that though.

Not really, no. You have to keep in mind that the European nationalist right, or at least some of those parties, have historical ties to pro-Nazi parties, so it takes some political manoeuvring to get to a pro-Israeli Hawk position. At least in my own country, for a long time one of the most important demands of the far-right party was retroactive amnesty for the "collaborators" during WW2, those who voluntarily cooperated with the Nazi occupiers and were harshly punished for it after the liberation - it's kind of hard to do that with the one hand while courting Israel with the other. They have indeed come around to doing so by now, though.

But no, it's not really about enemy of my enemy, it's just about them feeling that the Nakba and Israel's actions since justify the behaviour of Hamas and Hizbullah - while glossing over Hamas' treatment of its own people.


View original postIt's understandable, but it still opens the door for justified cynicism toward them.

Sure.
View original postI'm sure he has a vision, I'd just guess it is decidedly narcissistic in nature. People who try to straddle that many fences publicly either are in it for personal glorification or have one very specific and public goal they make no secret of.

Heh. Probably.
View original postYou're making sense, and I forgot the time zone difference. I'm open to the possibility of what you're suggesting, tight-rope-wise, and indeed I do believe that is often the case, nor do I take as a given that the Sec-general of a group automatically is a good and/or representative spokesman. However, I do think the more cynical interpretation applies to some and I don't think we want to be cutting too much slack either. But I'm tired myself, and we're far outside my zone of expertise for me to be able to get any more solid or specific.

You don't have to cut them too much slack on my behalf. I think the most important point to keep in mind, more than the tightrope walking thing, is the "political correctness" one - the strong pressure within the Arab Muslim and to a lesser extent other Muslim communities that makes it very difficult to make even seemingly common-sense statements like "the majority of the Palestinian refugees will have to remain where they are for good, no matter what", or "a number of passages in the hadith are deeply problematic and should be ignored" or a good number of others. It's easier to come across such statements in places where the Muslims don't feel nearly as beleagured from all sides - like Turkey, or South-East-Asia. But even they feel the pressure from abroad.
View original postWell, in the US anyway, with the endless cycles of immigrants, we've always cut a certain extra slack for those community leaders juggling total integration with 'the old country' views, trying to find either an optimal integration or at least an acceptable one. I'd imagine much the same applies elsewhere. Nevertheless, I don't think there's anything like the degree of anti-immigrant hostility that justifies either the radicalism or the extra slack to those immigrant community leaders in dealing with it, in terms of two-faced rhetoric. I'm not blind to the fact that there is still a lot of hostility, and some fairly intense pockets of it, Burqa bans and all, but its definitely not the 'bad old days', so to speak. The problem is that most of the reasonable goals I've heard - and many are reasonable, we can not deny some, at best, troubling double-standards seem in play, varying in type and degree from nation to nation in the West - do not seem to justify, or even benefit from, warm ties with radical elements. Quite the opposite, I'd say.

Hm, true. But yeah, Qaradawi would not be considered as a radical element.

"Bad old days" may be an American concept that does not apply - in most of Western Europe, having any significant number of immigrants of a different religion and culture is a rather recent concept, dating back only to the sixties and seventies. Hell, having any significant number of inhabitants of a different religion, immigrant or no, is a rather recent concept in my country and some others. Perhaps Americans are liable to forget that until the Muslim immigrants started coming, the bulk of Western Europe consisted of essentially homogeneous regions and countries, in religious terms, having changed extremely little since the turn of the sixteenth century, before the Mayflower even left. Protestants in northern Germany, the bulk of the Netherlands, Switzerland, some parts of France; Catholics in southern Germany, the southern Netherlands and all of Belgium, most of France and all of Italy, Spain and Portugal. In most cases by majorities of 90 if not 95% and more, except perhaps in the big cities. Only the UK had any kind of real mixture, with Catholic and Dissenter minorities dispersed throughout the country (at least, I think they are dispersed, there may still be regions where they are notably more prominent than elsewhere, but I really don't know the details). And yes, Jewish minorities in most of these countries of course, but too small and too concentrated in a small amount of cities to make much of a difference.

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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2604 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 748 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 656 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 727 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1132 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1194 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 678 Views
FALSE! - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1232 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1183 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1342 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1187 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1490 Views
Ok....and? - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1058 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 710 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1127 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 761 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1199 Views
LOL. - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1129 Views
Violence.... - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1109 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 985 Views
You are something... - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1059 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 704 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1037 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1130 Views
Yes. - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1073 Views
Re: Yes. - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1103 Views
You know better than that. - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1105 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1210 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 662 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1072 Views
... ? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 697 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 656 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1091 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1022 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1173 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1108 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1110 Views
Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1190 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1210 Views
No, it actaully does not. - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1193 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 989 Views
Exactly - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1113 Views
Couple of things - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1426 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1309 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1139 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1087 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1132 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1002 Views
That's a shame. - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 942 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1031 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 953 Views
Sure, I'll bite. - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1124 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1035 Views
I hope you like black and white. - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 988 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1047 Views
I think I must have confused you. - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 953 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1053 Views
Not really - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1072 Views
Yawn. Bored now. - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 998 Views
whatever *NM* - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 604 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1305 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1181 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1377 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 979 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1104 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1062 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1223 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 603 Views
I agree. *NM* - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 663 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1181 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1066 Views
Oh, so its our fault... - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1078 Views
It's always our fault *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 788 Views
In general, I agree - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1209 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1053 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 722 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1144 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1002 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1190 Views
Exactly. - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1128 Views
Hyperbole? - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 940 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1195 Views
No, I really don't think so. - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1003 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1001 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1151 Views
It's accurate. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 674 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1052 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1169 Views
Hm - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1134 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1131 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1118 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 665 Views
No - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1138 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1102 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1071 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 683 Views
I already knew - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1036 Views
No. - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1055 Views
What a load of bullshit. - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1064 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1219 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1190 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1035 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1130 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 640 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1077 Views
Well yes. - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1024 Views
I would prefer to say that - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1236 Views
Of course you would. - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1136 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1201 Views
Ok. - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1217 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1420 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1296 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1149 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1134 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 707 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 636 Views
Statistically - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1195 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1179 Views
Hardly any - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1314 Views
I think probably not. - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1088 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 629 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 621 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 610 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1009 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 662 Views
Yes, he did. - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1060 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 653 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 994 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1138 Views
You mean like this? - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1182 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1017 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 654 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1108 Views
Yes it does. - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1098 Views
*sigh* - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1007 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 983 Views
no but they do tell a story - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 927 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1110 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 666 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1265 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 1687 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1134 Views
Just as a little aside - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1022 Views
Ever helpful. - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1209 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 1596 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1182 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 1628 Views
I'm having warm feelings. - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1177 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1480 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1392 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 893 Views
How much did you miss it, really? - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1101 Views

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