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Re: That's a shame. Legolas Send a noteboard - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM

View original postWell let me add in a disclaimer, I am by no means claiming expertise in this area, quite the opposite, my time there and the circumstances around it result a fairly high degree of ambivalence, which doesn't make for fertile ground to cultivate objective thought in, to put it mildly.

True.
View original postYou're right that the contradiction is mostly at surface detail, the most obvious analogy I think would be the police, possibly a very apt one in other respects too. It is very easy for people to simultaneously positive and negative views on law enforcement, akin to the ambivalence I remarked on feeling, and for the police to feel the same way about their own beats. It is not at all uncommon for inner city leaders to praise law enforcement one moment then turn around and blame them for every problem and accuse them of exaggerated or even imaginary abuses. Depending on the individual this may be entirely logical and reasonable or outright cynical power games.

Agreed that that is an apt analogy. And yeah, some measure of cynical power games is logical and reasonable for anyone taking a political position, I'm afraid...
View original postThe tendency to use nationalism or traditionalism along with foreign or minority scapegoats to cover over rampant incompetence or corruption is, of course, hardly uncommon. Ditto the habit of glossing over the faults of enemy-of-my-enemy allies. Don't know if there's a Europe-wide generally-right pro-Israeli Hawk faction that might inspire that though.

Not really, no. You have to keep in mind that the European nationalist right, or at least some of those parties, have historical ties to pro-Nazi parties, so it takes some political manoeuvring to get to a pro-Israeli Hawk position. At least in my own country, for a long time one of the most important demands of the far-right party was retroactive amnesty for the "collaborators" during WW2, those who voluntarily cooperated with the Nazi occupiers and were harshly punished for it after the liberation - it's kind of hard to do that with the one hand while courting Israel with the other. They have indeed come around to doing so by now, though.

But no, it's not really about enemy of my enemy, it's just about them feeling that the Nakba and Israel's actions since justify the behaviour of Hamas and Hizbullah - while glossing over Hamas' treatment of its own people.


View original postIt's understandable, but it still opens the door for justified cynicism toward them.

Sure.
View original postI'm sure he has a vision, I'd just guess it is decidedly narcissistic in nature. People who try to straddle that many fences publicly either are in it for personal glorification or have one very specific and public goal they make no secret of.

Heh. Probably.
View original postYou're making sense, and I forgot the time zone difference. I'm open to the possibility of what you're suggesting, tight-rope-wise, and indeed I do believe that is often the case, nor do I take as a given that the Sec-general of a group automatically is a good and/or representative spokesman. However, I do think the more cynical interpretation applies to some and I don't think we want to be cutting too much slack either. But I'm tired myself, and we're far outside my zone of expertise for me to be able to get any more solid or specific.

You don't have to cut them too much slack on my behalf. I think the most important point to keep in mind, more than the tightrope walking thing, is the "political correctness" one - the strong pressure within the Arab Muslim and to a lesser extent other Muslim communities that makes it very difficult to make even seemingly common-sense statements like "the majority of the Palestinian refugees will have to remain where they are for good, no matter what", or "a number of passages in the hadith are deeply problematic and should be ignored" or a good number of others. It's easier to come across such statements in places where the Muslims don't feel nearly as beleagured from all sides - like Turkey, or South-East-Asia. But even they feel the pressure from abroad.
View original postWell, in the US anyway, with the endless cycles of immigrants, we've always cut a certain extra slack for those community leaders juggling total integration with 'the old country' views, trying to find either an optimal integration or at least an acceptable one. I'd imagine much the same applies elsewhere. Nevertheless, I don't think there's anything like the degree of anti-immigrant hostility that justifies either the radicalism or the extra slack to those immigrant community leaders in dealing with it, in terms of two-faced rhetoric. I'm not blind to the fact that there is still a lot of hostility, and some fairly intense pockets of it, Burqa bans and all, but its definitely not the 'bad old days', so to speak. The problem is that most of the reasonable goals I've heard - and many are reasonable, we can not deny some, at best, troubling double-standards seem in play, varying in type and degree from nation to nation in the West - do not seem to justify, or even benefit from, warm ties with radical elements. Quite the opposite, I'd say.

Hm, true. But yeah, Qaradawi would not be considered as a radical element.

"Bad old days" may be an American concept that does not apply - in most of Western Europe, having any significant number of immigrants of a different religion and culture is a rather recent concept, dating back only to the sixties and seventies. Hell, having any significant number of inhabitants of a different religion, immigrant or no, is a rather recent concept in my country and some others. Perhaps Americans are liable to forget that until the Muslim immigrants started coming, the bulk of Western Europe consisted of essentially homogeneous regions and countries, in religious terms, having changed extremely little since the turn of the sixteenth century, before the Mayflower even left. Protestants in northern Germany, the bulk of the Netherlands, Switzerland, some parts of France; Catholics in southern Germany, the southern Netherlands and all of Belgium, most of France and all of Italy, Spain and Portugal. In most cases by majorities of 90 if not 95% and more, except perhaps in the big cities. Only the UK had any kind of real mixture, with Catholic and Dissenter minorities dispersed throughout the country (at least, I think they are dispersed, there may still be regions where they are notably more prominent than elsewhere, but I really don't know the details). And yes, Jewish minorities in most of these countries of course, but too small and too concentrated in a small amount of cities to make much of a difference.

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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2645 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 763 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 670 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 742 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1169 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1235 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 691 Views
FALSE! - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1273 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1219 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1381 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1229 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1526 Views
Ok....and? - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1092 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 727 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1167 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 775 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1229 Views
LOL. - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1168 Views
Violence.... - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1152 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 1025 Views
You are something... - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1092 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 725 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1074 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1167 Views
Yes. - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1106 Views
Re: Yes. - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1143 Views
You know better than that. - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1149 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1249 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 678 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1115 Views
... ? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 717 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 670 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1130 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1056 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1211 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1140 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1152 Views
Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1227 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1248 Views
No, it actaully does not. - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1230 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 1017 Views
Exactly - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1144 Views
Couple of things - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1467 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1336 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1177 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1127 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1165 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1036 Views
That's a shame. - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 978 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1071 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 997 Views
Sure, I'll bite. - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1174 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1076 Views
I hope you like black and white. - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 1025 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1099 Views
I think I must have confused you. - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 989 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1088 Views
Not really - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1106 Views
Yawn. Bored now. - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 1036 Views
whatever *NM* - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 618 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1350 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1217 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1422 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 1017 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1154 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1100 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1256 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 620 Views
I agree. *NM* - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 681 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1221 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1090 Views
Oh, so its our fault... - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1114 Views
It's always our fault *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 804 Views
In general, I agree - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1247 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1090 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 739 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1174 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1033 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1228 Views
Exactly. - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1159 Views
Hyperbole? - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 979 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1234 Views
No, I really don't think so. - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1042 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1041 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1188 Views
It's accurate. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 690 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1089 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1208 Views
Hm - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1169 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1174 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1147 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 681 Views
No - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1177 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1138 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1110 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 702 Views
I already knew - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1068 Views
No. - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1091 Views
What a load of bullshit. - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1095 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1250 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1227 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1072 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1166 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 659 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1110 Views
Well yes. - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1060 Views
I would prefer to say that - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1275 Views
Of course you would. - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1184 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1244 Views
Ok. - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1254 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1465 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1327 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1188 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1170 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 722 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 653 Views
Statistically - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1236 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1217 Views
Hardly any - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1347 Views
I think probably not. - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1120 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 646 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 636 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 627 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1051 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 676 Views
Yes, he did. - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1104 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 665 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 1030 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1167 Views
You mean like this? - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1219 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1054 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 671 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1136 Views
Yes it does. - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1140 Views
*sigh* - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1031 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 1016 Views
no but they do tell a story - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 964 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1149 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 681 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1297 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 1721 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1180 Views
Just as a little aside - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1056 Views
Ever helpful. - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1254 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 1633 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1225 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 1670 Views
I'm having warm feelings. - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1210 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1519 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1434 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 913 Views
How much did you miss it, really? - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1140 Views

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