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That's a shame. Legolas Send a noteboard - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM

View original postIn my experience your average middle-eastern isn't radical, just generally ignorant of virtually everything more than a mile from their home. A lot of these alleged 'voices for moderation' aren't playing to their audience's prejudices, they actively try to instill them. Which isn't very hard, sadly, you really have to spend some time there, out in the sticks, to appreciate what a bizarre blend of modern and medieval there is.

I was talking about Muslims in Europe more than those in the Middle-East, can't claim any personal experience with that latter group unlike you. Although having studied Arabic, Islam and Islamic history, I think I have a reasonably good idea, albeit on a more academic than personal level, of the bizarre blend you describe. For sure, the most notable thing about opinion polls among Muslims like the Pew one published a couple of weeks ago, is how many times the results seem to contradict each other, at least at first glance and in the eyes of westerners, and the massive confusion about what precisely shariah means is only one small part of that.

Certainly you are right about how we shouldn't mistake ignorance for radicalism. But plenty of Middle Easterners, whether in Europe or there, are far from ignorant - their seemingly radical stances are born of the narrow intertwining of religion and politics that has characterized mainstream Sunni Islam almost since its beginning (and Twelver Shi'a as well, really), the way their leaders abuse both for propaganda to make people overlook their constant failures - and simply their perspective. I think it's important to understand how a Muslim can e.g. support Hamas or Hizbullah, without being either ignorant or particularly radical. Hell, even some non-Muslims do that, the more extreme elements of the pro-Palestinians on the European left (though one could justifiably ask why I call them extreme if they aren't Muslim, and not if they hold the exact same view but are Muslim...).


View original postLike I said, I don't object over the sponsorship so much as the glowing praise in it sans so much as a hat-tip to 'Not someone we always agree with'. There's also limits of how far you can use the free speech umbrella before you're legitimately tainted by association. Big difference between the ACLU backing the KKK's right to march and if they came out praising them. You don't have to criticize them, but you can't praise someone then raise the 'free speech shield', that's not how it works. You can bring Bashir al-Assad on TV for an interview and criticize him, you can bring him on and remain staunchly neutral, you can't bring him on, call him an exceptional leader and be immune to being called a sympathizer for a mass murderer. We can talk abut respecting their beliefs and their own moderate voice's need to walk a fine line but we do need to keep in mind that a lot of those beliefs can be described without a hint of hyperbole and still violate Godwin's Law.

Don't misunderstand me - I am not saying the MCB made the right decision or the only possible decision there, necessarily, just that it's an understandable decision.

And I hope it's clear by now how I'm not a fan of Yusuf Al Qaradawi. But I will admit, my reasons for that have very little to do with his support for Hamas or Hizbullah. More with his arrogance and the way he's constantly referred to as such a big authority without ever having shown anything in the way of vision or leadership that I've seen - stop the presses, Qaradawi says the Taliban shouldn't blow up the Bamiyan Buddhas, then surely they won't! And being Egyptian, he gave some revoltingly weaselly comment on female genital mutilation in the article Hyoga linked to, which is actually a good illustration of how politics and culture and religion are inextricably linked, since e.g. an Iraqi or Iranian counterpart would have strongly discouraged or outright forbidden the practice.

Anyway - it's been a long day, and I'm not really sure how much sense I'm making here - at the end of the day Qaradawi IS one of the single most influential Muslim clerics in the world, and while the MCB could of course have included some obligatory criticism of him in their published statement, it makes plenty of sense to me that they didn't, and I don't think that makes them radical. It just makes them tightrope walkers, who choose to conserve political capital for battles that matter more. Radicalizing young Muslims already find them weaklings who kowtow to the political establishment, I've no doubt, and would think that even more if they criticized even someone as mainstream as Qaradawi.

In (Arab) Islam and in Arab politics both, there is a great deal of "political correctness" as I said - so many things one has to pay lipservice to, so many things one can't publicly say without being attacked from all sides. But one has to realize that, and realize that due to that, people may not always be as radical as they seem. Some of the things they say may just be formulaic and near-obligatory without them really meaning them. Arab politicians in the West, in which group I include the leaders of organizations like MCB or CAIR, have real and concrete goals and causes that they need their influence and their political capital for, such as trying to keep radicalizing youth under control, and so taking on those taboos is really just a stupid distraction from that.

Note: Yes, I'm aware that there are more Pakistani and Indian British Muslims than Arab ones, and so the matter gets more complicated, but let's not go into that.

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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2605 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 748 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 656 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 728 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1133 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1195 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 679 Views
FALSE! - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1232 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1183 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1343 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1188 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1490 Views
Ok....and? - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1059 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 710 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1127 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 762 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1200 Views
LOL. - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1130 Views
Violence.... - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1110 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 987 Views
You are something... - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1060 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 704 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1037 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1131 Views
Yes. - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1074 Views
Re: Yes. - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1104 Views
You know better than that. - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1106 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1211 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 663 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1073 Views
... ? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 698 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 657 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1092 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1023 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1174 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1109 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1111 Views
Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1191 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1211 Views
No, it actaully does not. - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1194 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 989 Views
Exactly - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1114 Views
Couple of things - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1426 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1310 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1140 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1088 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1133 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1002 Views
That's a shame. - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 943 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1031 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 953 Views
Sure, I'll bite. - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1125 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1036 Views
I hope you like black and white. - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 988 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1048 Views
I think I must have confused you. - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 953 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1054 Views
Not really - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1073 Views
Yawn. Bored now. - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 999 Views
whatever *NM* - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 604 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1306 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1182 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1378 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 979 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1105 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1063 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1224 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 604 Views
I agree. *NM* - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 663 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1182 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1066 Views
Oh, so its our fault... - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1079 Views
It's always our fault *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 789 Views
In general, I agree - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1210 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1054 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 723 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1145 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1003 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1191 Views
Exactly. - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1129 Views
Hyperbole? - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 941 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1196 Views
No, I really don't think so. - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1004 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1002 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1152 Views
It's accurate. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 675 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1053 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1170 Views
Hm - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1135 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1132 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1119 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 666 Views
No - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1138 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1103 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1072 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 684 Views
I already knew - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1037 Views
No. - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1055 Views
What a load of bullshit. - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1065 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1219 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1191 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1036 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1131 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 641 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1078 Views
Well yes. - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1025 Views
I would prefer to say that - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1236 Views
Of course you would. - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1137 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1202 Views
Ok. - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1217 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1421 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1297 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1150 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1135 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 708 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 637 Views
Statistically - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1197 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1180 Views
Hardly any - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1315 Views
I think probably not. - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1088 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 630 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 622 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 611 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1010 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 663 Views
Yes, he did. - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1061 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 653 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 995 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1139 Views
You mean like this? - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1183 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1018 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 655 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1109 Views
Yes it does. - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1099 Views
*sigh* - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1007 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 984 Views
no but they do tell a story - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 928 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1111 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 667 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1266 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 1688 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1135 Views
Just as a little aside - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1023 Views
Ever helpful. - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1209 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 1597 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1183 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 1629 Views
I'm having warm feelings. - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1178 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1481 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1393 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 893 Views
How much did you miss it, really? - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1102 Views

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