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My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic Isaac Send a noteboard - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM

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View original post... and gave him rather glowing praise while they did it. In the news release from the MCB linked there their own secretary-general said "Yusuf Al Qaradawi enjoys unparalleled respect and influence throughout the Muslim world" and criticized the gov't for being 'pro-Zionist', I'm not really sure how someone can put their name and their whole organization behind defending the guy and not expect to be viewed as two-faced. Had they just said 'He is an influential if controversial speaker convicted of no crime, free speech protects even that which we disagree' it might be different, but you can't give a guy props that way when he's said those things and not have legitimate doubts raised as to just how non-violent and moderate you are. This is their own news release, a crafted document, and nowhere in there was their even a gesture towards criticism like 'although the MCB disagrees with many...' and the thing is still up on their site! They didn't come back afterwards and say 'uh, maybe this needs toned down or qualified or something'.


View original postTo be honest I'm really not surprised about that, it's fairly typical in my experience for the kind of wishy-washy positions generally taken by the Muslim organizations in Western countries, which seek some impossible balance between being sufficiently politically correct to not be branded extremists by the political mainstream, while still satisfying even the more rebellious elements among the people they represent. They often fail in both respects, sometimes even at the same time, but one can see why they keep trying. CAIR is not very different in that sense.

In my experience your average middle-eastern isn't radical, just generally ignorant of virtually everything more than a mile from their home. A lot of these alleged 'voices for moderation' aren't playing to their audience's prejudices, they actively try to instill them. Which isn't very hard, sadly, you really have to spend some time there, out in the sticks, to appreciate what a bizarre blend of modern and medieval there is.


View original postThe sad part is that "Yusuf Al Qaradawi enjoys unparalleled respect and influence throughout the Muslim world" is really close enough to the truth to make it entirely justifiable as a statement by an organization as impossibly placed as the MCB (or CAIR). The man is an idiot, but an influential one. Still, I don't think releasing such statements or sponsoring him for a visum is irreconcileable with taking a pro-peace and anti-violence stance, as such. If you're going to limit your selection of invited speakers or guests to those Arab Muslims who publicly and invariably condemn Hamas and Hizbullah and defend Israel, well, your list is going to be very, very short and you're making yourself largely irrelevant at least among the people you're supposed to represent (even if you become a darling of some other groups in the process). That doesn't have that much to do with religion and all the more with nationalism and politics. If you think political correctness in the west is stifling debate, you've clearly never taken a look at the Arab countries - except that their brand of political correctness has some very different dogmas and truths that must never be spoken than ours.

Like I said, I don't object over the sponsorship so much as the glowing praise in it sans so much as a hat-tip to 'Not someone we always agree with'. There's also limits of how far you can use the free speech umbrella before you're legitimately tainted by association. Big difference between the ACLU backing the KKK's right to march and if they came out praising them. You don't have to criticize them, but you can't praise someone then raise the 'free speech shield', that's not how it works. You can bring Bashir al-Assad on TV for an interview and criticize him, you can bring him on and remain staunchly neutral, you can't bring him on, call him an exceptional leader and be immune to being called a sympathizer for a mass murderer. We can talk abut respecting their beliefs and their own moderate voice's need to walk a fine line but we do need to keep in mind that a lot of those beliefs can be described without a hint of hyperbole and still violate Godwin's Law.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2604 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 748 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 656 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 727 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1132 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1194 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 678 Views
FALSE! - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1232 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1182 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1342 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1187 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1490 Views
Ok....and? - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1058 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 710 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1127 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 761 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1199 Views
LOL. - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1129 Views
Violence.... - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1109 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 985 Views
You are something... - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1059 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 704 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1037 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1130 Views
Yes. - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1073 Views
Re: Yes. - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1103 Views
You know better than that. - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1105 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1210 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 662 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1072 Views
... ? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 697 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 656 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1091 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1022 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1173 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1108 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1110 Views
Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1190 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1210 Views
No, it actaully does not. - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1193 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 989 Views
Exactly - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1113 Views
Couple of things - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1426 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1309 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1139 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1087 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1132 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1002 Views
That's a shame. - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 942 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1031 Views
Re: That's a shame. - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 952 Views
Sure, I'll bite. - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1124 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1035 Views
I hope you like black and white. - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 987 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1047 Views
I think I must have confused you. - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 952 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1053 Views
Not really - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1072 Views
Yawn. Bored now. - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 998 Views
whatever *NM* - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 603 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1305 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1181 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1377 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 979 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1104 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1062 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1223 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 603 Views
I agree. *NM* - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 663 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1181 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1066 Views
Oh, so its our fault... - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1078 Views
It's always our fault *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 788 Views
In general, I agree - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1209 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1053 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 722 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1144 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1002 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1190 Views
Exactly. - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1128 Views
Hyperbole? - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 940 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1195 Views
No, I really don't think so. - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1003 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1001 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1151 Views
It's accurate. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 674 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1052 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1169 Views
Hm - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1134 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1131 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1118 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 665 Views
No - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1138 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1102 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1071 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 683 Views
I already knew - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1036 Views
No. - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1055 Views
What a load of bullshit. - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1064 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1218 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1190 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1035 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1130 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 640 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1077 Views
Well yes. - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1024 Views
I would prefer to say that - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1236 Views
Of course you would. - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1136 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1201 Views
Ok. - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1217 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1420 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1296 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1149 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1134 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 707 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 636 Views
Statistically - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1195 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1179 Views
Hardly any - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1314 Views
I think probably not. - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1088 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 629 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 621 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 610 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1009 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 662 Views
Yes, he did. - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1060 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 652 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 994 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1138 Views
You mean like this? - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1182 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1017 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 654 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1108 Views
Yes it does. - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1098 Views
*sigh* - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1007 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 983 Views
no but they do tell a story - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 927 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1110 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 666 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1265 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 1687 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1134 Views
Just as a little aside - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1022 Views
Ever helpful. - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1208 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 1596 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1182 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 1628 Views
I'm having warm feelings. - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1177 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1480 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1392 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 893 Views
How much did you miss it, really? - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1101 Views

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