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Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens Send a noteboard - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM

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A religion is not an abstract concept. It is a living, changing and evolving concept because at any given time it is a community of believers. Christianity in the Middle Ages was a far less tolerant community than it is today. The reason it is now more tolerant is largely because the experience of the Wars of Religion, the Enlightenment and the Post-Modern experience have radically changed the views of the people who profess it.

Islam today is going through violent and disruptive change. There are people preaching violence, and there are a lot of them. It is possible to read the Qur'an and justify this violence in it - the Salafists say that the Medinan surahs should take precedence over the Meccan surahs because they were written later, and the Medinan surahs have the problematic language that justifies killing non-believers.

While other religions can be interpreted to support violence, at the present it is Islam that IS being interpreted this way, and by a significant number of adherents. To attempt to equate religions is to wilfully ignore the reality in which we live.


Hmmm....I guess you're right. I read through the other responses. And you explained my flaws better than I could have. I was describing them as a static concept. Ignore the human elements and what you have is strictly the words on the page and the messages behind them. With people's interactions, I would undoubtedly agree that Islam is more violent than the other major religions. It's pretty clear. So what it looks like to me is a difference of how you wish to perceive religion. I want to hold a religion to its ideals, to say that this religion is essentially peaceful because that's what these words mean to me. But you're right in saying that is ignoring the reality because the reality is that that is not everyone's view and in reality, majority rules.

Go Hokies!

CS/CpE. Yay engineering!
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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2605 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 748 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 656 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 727 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1133 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. Hieshyn - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1195 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 679 Views
FALSE! Dannymac - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1232 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1183 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1343 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1187 Views
...I can think of a rather larger difference. Starts with J and ends with S. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/05/2013 11:54:28 PM 760 Views
Yeah, but not really, both religions acknowledge his existence, but differ on his role. HyogaRott - 29/05/2013 06:00:03 PM 1201 Views
Net result: All of God's children can enter into Heaven. Hieshyn - 30/05/2013 05:26:20 PM 1390 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1490 Views
Ok....and? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1058 Views
You asked for an example, I gave one. I'm not here to argue with you. *NM* Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 02:57:27 AM 678 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 710 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1127 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 761 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1200 Views
LOL. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1129 Views
Violence.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1109 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 985 Views
You are something... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1059 Views
We've gone from "Where does Christianity call for violence?" to "not all violence is bad." *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:09:30 PM 741 Views
To be fair, that is a good journey to make. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:51:17 AM 1111 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 704 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1037 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1131 Views
Yes. nossy - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1073 Views
Re: Yes. Isaac - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1103 Views
Congratulations; you now understand why (or one reason) my posts tend to run long. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:53:24 AM 1339 Views
You know better than that. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1106 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion Isaac - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1210 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 663 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way Isaac - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1073 Views
... ? *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 698 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* Isaac - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 657 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. Cannoli - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1091 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry snoopcester - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1022 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1174 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. Nebhead - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1108 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1111 Views
Your argument is logically flawed Tom - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1191 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1211 Views
No, it actaully does not. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1194 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up Nighthawk - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 989 Views
Exactly HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1113 Views
Couple of things nossy - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1426 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1309 Views
Well, "consistent" doesn't mean "never says things HyogaRott doesn't support." nossy - 23/05/2013 09:46:51 PM 1063 Views
There is a difference between putting forth a good PR spin occasionally and making a stand. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:55:48 AM 1015 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1139 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... Isaac - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1088 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1132 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1002 Views
That's a shame. Legolas - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 942 Views
Re: That's a shame. Isaac - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1031 Views
Re: That's a shame. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 953 Views
Sure, I'll bite. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1125 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1036 Views
I hope you like black and white. nossy - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 988 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1048 Views
I think I must have confused you. nossy - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 953 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1053 Views
Not really HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1073 Views
Yawn. Bored now. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 999 Views
whatever *NM* HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 604 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? Joel - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1305 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. Stephen - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1181 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here Tom - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1377 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 979 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. Tom - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1104 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1063 Views
Excellent post - anyone that thinks all religions are the same is a complete moron. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:32:26 AM 1219 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1224 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* ironclad - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 604 Views
I agree. *NM* Stephen - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 663 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1182 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1066 Views
The first step on the road to recovery is aknowledging your responsibility for where you are and do HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:22:42 PM 1024 Views
Oh, so its our fault... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1079 Views
It's always our fault *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 789 Views
In general, I agree nossy - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1210 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? Legolas - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1054 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 723 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1144 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1002 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1190 Views
Exactly. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1129 Views
Hyperbole? nossy - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 941 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1196 Views
No, I really don't think so. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1003 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1002 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. Legolas - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1152 Views
It's accurate. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 675 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. nossy - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1053 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1170 Views
Hm nossy - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1135 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1132 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1118 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 666 Views
No ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1138 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1103 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1072 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 684 Views
I already knew ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1037 Views
Just about every group has historically oppressed and BEEN oppressed at some time. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:00:54 AM 1145 Views
No. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1055 Views
Oh, I don't think he's talking about past "colonialism" only. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:18:11 AM 1074 Views
Possibly. Some people do, to be sure, and there is some truth in that view. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:27:36 AM 975 Views
What a load of bullshit. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1064 Views
I don't think you can reasonably claim to separate Salafi thought from the geopolitics of the time. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:23:03 PM 1087 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1219 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers random thoughts - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1190 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. Legolas - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1036 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1130 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* Legolas - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 640 Views
No, it had a bunch of opportunistic brown folks systematically dismantling it for centuries. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:43:00 AM 1071 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1077 Views
Well yes. nossy - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1024 Views
I would prefer to say that random thoughts - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1236 Views
Of course you would. nossy - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1136 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1202 Views
Ok. nossy - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1217 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1421 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1296 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. snoopcester - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1150 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? ßelals Girl - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1135 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 707 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 636 Views
Statistically snoopcester - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1196 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1180 Views
Hardly any snoopcester - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1315 Views
Your solution is profiling...because it's time to *stop* thinking all folks are the same? *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 02:36:32 PM 613 Views
I don't think we've ever encouraged people to think all folks are the same Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:29:54 PM 1006 Views
"Perhaps it's time to stop thinking all folks are the same?" ~A2k Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 07:49:12 PM 989 Views
I think he's pointing to the encuragement of willful blindedness with that remark Isaac - 23/05/2013 08:15:55 PM 1029 Views
I think probably not. nossy - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1088 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 629 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 621 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 611 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1010 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 662 Views
Yes, he did. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1061 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 653 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 994 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. nossy - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1138 Views
You mean like this? Larry - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1182 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid random thoughts - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1018 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 655 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such Larry - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1108 Views
Yes it does. Anonymous2000 - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1099 Views
*sigh* Larry - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1007 Views
I think asking most Americans for recognition of a non-binary political paradigm is a bit much. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:16:30 AM 677 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 983 Views
no but they do tell a story random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 927 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1110 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* Stephen - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 666 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1265 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? dart_board - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 1687 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1134 Views
Just as a little aside Tom - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1023 Views
Ever helpful. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1209 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 1597 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1183 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 1629 Views
I'm having warm feelings. nossy - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1178 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. dart_board - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1480 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " Joel - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1393 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* Dan - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 893 Views
How much did you miss it, really? Joel - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1101 Views
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