Active Users:857 Time:23/12/2024 02:10:14 AM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens Send a noteboard - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM

View original post
A religion is not an abstract concept. It is a living, changing and evolving concept because at any given time it is a community of believers. Christianity in the Middle Ages was a far less tolerant community than it is today. The reason it is now more tolerant is largely because the experience of the Wars of Religion, the Enlightenment and the Post-Modern experience have radically changed the views of the people who profess it.

Islam today is going through violent and disruptive change. There are people preaching violence, and there are a lot of them. It is possible to read the Qur'an and justify this violence in it - the Salafists say that the Medinan surahs should take precedence over the Meccan surahs because they were written later, and the Medinan surahs have the problematic language that justifies killing non-believers.

While other religions can be interpreted to support violence, at the present it is Islam that IS being interpreted this way, and by a significant number of adherents. To attempt to equate religions is to wilfully ignore the reality in which we live.


Hmmm....I guess you're right. I read through the other responses. And you explained my flaws better than I could have. I was describing them as a static concept. Ignore the human elements and what you have is strictly the words on the page and the messages behind them. With people's interactions, I would undoubtedly agree that Islam is more violent than the other major religions. It's pretty clear. So what it looks like to me is a difference of how you wish to perceive religion. I want to hold a religion to its ideals, to say that this religion is essentially peaceful because that's what these words mean to me. But you're right in saying that is ignoring the reality because the reality is that that is not everyone's view and in reality, majority rules.

Go Hokies!

CS/CpE. Yay engineering!
Reply to message
Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2623 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 754 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 662 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 733 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1145 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. Hieshyn - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1208 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 683 Views
FALSE! Dannymac - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1247 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1198 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1356 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1204 Views
...I can think of a rather larger difference. Starts with J and ends with S. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/05/2013 11:54:28 PM 768 Views
Yeah, but not really, both religions acknowledge his existence, but differ on his role. HyogaRott - 29/05/2013 06:00:03 PM 1216 Views
Net result: All of God's children can enter into Heaven. Hieshyn - 30/05/2013 05:26:20 PM 1404 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1507 Views
Ok....and? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1074 Views
You asked for an example, I gave one. I'm not here to argue with you. *NM* Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 02:57:27 AM 684 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 718 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1142 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 768 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1211 Views
LOL. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1147 Views
Violence.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1126 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 1002 Views
You are something... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1076 Views
We've gone from "Where does Christianity call for violence?" to "not all violence is bad." *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:09:30 PM 749 Views
To be fair, that is a good journey to make. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:51:17 AM 1127 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 711 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1054 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1145 Views
Yes. nossy - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1088 Views
Re: Yes. Isaac - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1119 Views
Congratulations; you now understand why (or one reason) my posts tend to run long. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:53:24 AM 1353 Views
You know better than that. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1122 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion Isaac - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1228 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 668 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way Isaac - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1092 Views
... ? *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 707 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* Isaac - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 663 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. Cannoli - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1106 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry snoopcester - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1036 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1190 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. Nebhead - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1123 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1129 Views
Your argument is logically flawed Tom - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1208 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1227 Views
No, it actaully does not. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1209 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up Nighthawk - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 1003 Views
Exactly HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1129 Views
Couple of things nossy - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1444 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1325 Views
Well, "consistent" doesn't mean "never says things HyogaRott doesn't support." nossy - 23/05/2013 09:46:51 PM 1081 Views
There is a difference between putting forth a good PR spin occasionally and making a stand. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:55:48 AM 1031 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1155 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... Isaac - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1104 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1147 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1017 Views
That's a shame. Legolas - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 958 Views
Re: That's a shame. Isaac - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1050 Views
Re: That's a shame. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 968 Views
Sure, I'll bite. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1148 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1057 Views
I hope you like black and white. nossy - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 1005 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1079 Views
I think I must have confused you. nossy - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 971 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1070 Views
Not really HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1084 Views
Yawn. Bored now. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 1012 Views
whatever *NM* HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 611 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? Joel - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1327 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. Stephen - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1198 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here Tom - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1398 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 992 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. Tom - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1128 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1081 Views
Excellent post - anyone that thinks all religions are the same is a complete moron. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:32:26 AM 1240 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1238 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* ironclad - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 612 Views
I agree. *NM* Stephen - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 671 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1198 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1080 Views
The first step on the road to recovery is aknowledging your responsibility for where you are and do HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:22:42 PM 1040 Views
Oh, so its our fault... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1090 Views
It's always our fault *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 797 Views
In general, I agree nossy - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1224 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? Legolas - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1066 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 730 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1158 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1015 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1207 Views
Exactly. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1146 Views
Hyperbole? nossy - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 958 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1212 Views
No, I really don't think so. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1022 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1018 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. Legolas - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1165 Views
It's accurate. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 681 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. nossy - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1068 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1189 Views
Hm nossy - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1148 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1152 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1131 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 673 Views
No ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1152 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1117 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1091 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 691 Views
I already knew ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1054 Views
Just about every group has historically oppressed and BEEN oppressed at some time. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:00:54 AM 1163 Views
No. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1068 Views
Oh, I don't think he's talking about past "colonialism" only. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:18:11 AM 1089 Views
Possibly. Some people do, to be sure, and there is some truth in that view. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:27:36 AM 992 Views
What a load of bullshit. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1078 Views
I don't think you can reasonably claim to separate Salafi thought from the geopolitics of the time. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:23:03 PM 1102 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1232 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers random thoughts - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1205 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. Legolas - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1053 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1144 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* Legolas - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 650 Views
No, it had a bunch of opportunistic brown folks systematically dismantling it for centuries. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:43:00 AM 1087 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1093 Views
Well yes. nossy - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1042 Views
I would prefer to say that random thoughts - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1252 Views
Of course you would. nossy - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1157 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1220 Views
Ok. nossy - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1235 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1440 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1309 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. snoopcester - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1166 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? ßelals Girl - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1153 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 716 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 643 Views
Statistically snoopcester - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1214 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1193 Views
Hardly any snoopcester - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1329 Views
Your solution is profiling...because it's time to *stop* thinking all folks are the same? *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 02:36:32 PM 620 Views
I don't think we've ever encouraged people to think all folks are the same Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:29:54 PM 1024 Views
"Perhaps it's time to stop thinking all folks are the same?" ~A2k Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 07:49:12 PM 1009 Views
I think he's pointing to the encuragement of willful blindedness with that remark Isaac - 23/05/2013 08:15:55 PM 1045 Views
I think probably not. nossy - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1102 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 636 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 629 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 618 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1026 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 669 Views
Yes, he did. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1079 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 659 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 1011 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. nossy - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1154 Views
You mean like this? Larry - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1201 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid random thoughts - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1034 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 661 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such Larry - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1124 Views
Yes it does. Anonymous2000 - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1116 Views
*sigh* Larry - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1023 Views
I think asking most Americans for recognition of a non-binary political paradigm is a bit much. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:16:30 AM 683 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 1000 Views
no but they do tell a story random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 944 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1127 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* Stephen - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 674 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1284 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? dart_board - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 1702 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1155 Views
Just as a little aside Tom - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1036 Views
Ever helpful. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1228 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 1611 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1200 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 1641 Views
I'm having warm feelings. nossy - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1189 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. dart_board - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1498 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " Joel - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1409 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* Dan - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 901 Views
How much did you miss it, really? Joel - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1121 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes