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Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens Send a noteboard - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM

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A religion is not an abstract concept. It is a living, changing and evolving concept because at any given time it is a community of believers. Christianity in the Middle Ages was a far less tolerant community than it is today. The reason it is now more tolerant is largely because the experience of the Wars of Religion, the Enlightenment and the Post-Modern experience have radically changed the views of the people who profess it.

Islam today is going through violent and disruptive change. There are people preaching violence, and there are a lot of them. It is possible to read the Qur'an and justify this violence in it - the Salafists say that the Medinan surahs should take precedence over the Meccan surahs because they were written later, and the Medinan surahs have the problematic language that justifies killing non-believers.

While other religions can be interpreted to support violence, at the present it is Islam that IS being interpreted this way, and by a significant number of adherents. To attempt to equate religions is to wilfully ignore the reality in which we live.


Hmmm....I guess you're right. I read through the other responses. And you explained my flaws better than I could have. I was describing them as a static concept. Ignore the human elements and what you have is strictly the words on the page and the messages behind them. With people's interactions, I would undoubtedly agree that Islam is more violent than the other major religions. It's pretty clear. So what it looks like to me is a difference of how you wish to perceive religion. I want to hold a religion to its ideals, to say that this religion is essentially peaceful because that's what these words mean to me. But you're right in saying that is ignoring the reality because the reality is that that is not everyone's view and in reality, majority rules.

Go Hokies!

CS/CpE. Yay engineering!
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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2608 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 749 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 659 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 729 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1135 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. Hieshyn - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1197 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 680 Views
FALSE! Dannymac - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1234 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1186 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1347 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1191 Views
...I can think of a rather larger difference. Starts with J and ends with S. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/05/2013 11:54:28 PM 761 Views
Yeah, but not really, both religions acknowledge his existence, but differ on his role. HyogaRott - 29/05/2013 06:00:03 PM 1203 Views
Net result: All of God's children can enter into Heaven. Hieshyn - 30/05/2013 05:26:20 PM 1391 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1493 Views
Ok....and? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1060 Views
You asked for an example, I gave one. I'm not here to argue with you. *NM* Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 02:57:27 AM 680 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 714 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1130 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 764 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1202 Views
LOL. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1131 Views
Violence.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1114 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 987 Views
You are something... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1064 Views
We've gone from "Where does Christianity call for violence?" to "not all violence is bad." *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:09:30 PM 743 Views
To be fair, that is a good journey to make. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:51:17 AM 1114 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 706 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1040 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1132 Views
Yes. nossy - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1077 Views
Re: Yes. Isaac - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1108 Views
Congratulations; you now understand why (or one reason) my posts tend to run long. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:53:24 AM 1341 Views
You know better than that. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1107 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion Isaac - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1213 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 665 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way Isaac - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1076 Views
... ? *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 701 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* Isaac - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 659 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. Cannoli - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1094 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry snoopcester - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1026 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1179 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. Nebhead - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1112 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1113 Views
Your argument is logically flawed Tom - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1194 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1212 Views
No, it actaully does not. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1195 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up Nighthawk - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 991 Views
Exactly HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1116 Views
Couple of things nossy - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1430 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1312 Views
Well, "consistent" doesn't mean "never says things HyogaRott doesn't support." nossy - 23/05/2013 09:46:51 PM 1066 Views
There is a difference between putting forth a good PR spin occasionally and making a stand. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:55:48 AM 1019 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1143 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... Isaac - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1089 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1134 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1003 Views
That's a shame. Legolas - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 946 Views
Re: That's a shame. Isaac - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1035 Views
Re: That's a shame. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 953 Views
Sure, I'll bite. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1128 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1036 Views
I hope you like black and white. nossy - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 991 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1049 Views
I think I must have confused you. nossy - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 956 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1056 Views
Not really HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1076 Views
Yawn. Bored now. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 1002 Views
whatever *NM* HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 605 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? Joel - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1310 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. Stephen - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1185 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here Tom - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1381 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 980 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. Tom - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1107 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1065 Views
Excellent post - anyone that thinks all religions are the same is a complete moron. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:32:26 AM 1224 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1226 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* ironclad - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 605 Views
I agree. *NM* Stephen - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 666 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1183 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1068 Views
The first step on the road to recovery is aknowledging your responsibility for where you are and do HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:22:42 PM 1027 Views
Oh, so its our fault... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1081 Views
It's always our fault *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 791 Views
In general, I agree nossy - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1213 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? Legolas - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1054 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 724 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1148 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1003 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1195 Views
Exactly. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1132 Views
Hyperbole? nossy - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 943 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1201 Views
No, I really don't think so. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1005 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1005 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. Legolas - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1155 Views
It's accurate. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 676 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. nossy - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1057 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1174 Views
Hm nossy - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1137 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1133 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1120 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 667 Views
No ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1143 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1106 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1076 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 684 Views
I already knew ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1038 Views
Just about every group has historically oppressed and BEEN oppressed at some time. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:00:54 AM 1147 Views
No. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1057 Views
Oh, I don't think he's talking about past "colonialism" only. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:18:11 AM 1075 Views
Possibly. Some people do, to be sure, and there is some truth in that view. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:27:36 AM 979 Views
What a load of bullshit. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1068 Views
I don't think you can reasonably claim to separate Salafi thought from the geopolitics of the time. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:23:03 PM 1089 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1220 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers random thoughts - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1192 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. Legolas - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1038 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1132 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* Legolas - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 645 Views
No, it had a bunch of opportunistic brown folks systematically dismantling it for centuries. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:43:00 AM 1072 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1079 Views
Well yes. nossy - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1026 Views
I would prefer to say that random thoughts - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1239 Views
Of course you would. nossy - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1140 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1203 Views
Ok. nossy - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1220 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1424 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1298 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. snoopcester - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1152 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? ßelals Girl - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1138 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 708 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 639 Views
Statistically snoopcester - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1199 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1180 Views
Hardly any snoopcester - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1316 Views
Your solution is profiling...because it's time to *stop* thinking all folks are the same? *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 02:36:32 PM 615 Views
I don't think we've ever encouraged people to think all folks are the same Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:29:54 PM 1009 Views
"Perhaps it's time to stop thinking all folks are the same?" ~A2k Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 07:49:12 PM 991 Views
I think he's pointing to the encuragement of willful blindedness with that remark Isaac - 23/05/2013 08:15:55 PM 1030 Views
I think probably not. nossy - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1091 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 630 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 624 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 612 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1012 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 663 Views
Yes, he did. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1064 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 654 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 995 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. nossy - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1143 Views
You mean like this? Larry - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1184 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid random thoughts - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1020 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 657 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such Larry - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1114 Views
Yes it does. Anonymous2000 - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1101 Views
*sigh* Larry - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1012 Views
I think asking most Americans for recognition of a non-binary political paradigm is a bit much. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:16:30 AM 680 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 986 Views
no but they do tell a story random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 930 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1114 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* Stephen - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 668 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1270 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? dart_board - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 1689 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1137 Views
Just as a little aside Tom - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1026 Views
Ever helpful. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1211 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 1597 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1185 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 1630 Views
I'm having warm feelings. nossy - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1180 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. dart_board - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1483 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " Joel - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1395 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* Dan - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 894 Views
How much did you miss it, really? Joel - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1105 Views
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