Well, that pretty much ends the debate, I have no issue with your wanting government involved in healthcare, only with the possible degree, it isn't like it isn't already involved. For that matter, even the staunchest laize faire capitalist wants the government involved with laws involving medical practice like "Surgeon can not come in drunk to operating room" or "To get licensed, doctors must agree to certain practice, such as agreeing not to prescribe cyanide even though doctor in question is convinced of its healing qualities"

Its not really an all or nothing debate, and both sides are flinging around a lot of analogies and logic that are really cruddy. The one big difference is that those seeking to change the current system have the burden of proof on them, not those seeking to keep things the same. The old system does not have to prove itself superior, the new one does, because once it is in place it will be so permenantly.

... and while of course many of its opponents do basically have their fingers in their ears, many of us are listening, and I for one have not been convinced of a realistic probability that doing this will meet the standard I personally have for any government intervention, that it will raise the overall standard of living and or duration of life. Were someone able to show me solid evidence of that, I'd sign on in a heartbeat.