Active Users:442 Time:04/04/2025 06:07:14 PM
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining Isaac Send a noteboard - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM

View original postif you honestly believe that the only possible recourse for all citizens is to turn on each other in times of crisis, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree about the message the NRA has been pushing, especially over the last couple of years. i can think of no left-wing group in existence in the US who pushes a false, dystopian image of life in American society that the only recourse is to turn on each other and has the legislative clout to make sure it passes through Congress.

I obviously do not believe citizens should turn on each other, that remark is uncalled for, unsupported, and offensive. It is simply a rant.


View original postthe fact that we can sit here, 20 years after the first assault weapons ban, and have the exact same debate about guns in the exact same context should say something to how little we have moved as a society in terms of making things actually safer for everyone.


View original posti have zero problem with responsible gun owners who treat their weapons and fellow citizens with respect. but if we're going to arm everyone, at that point we're telling everyone that laws are only as good as the person shooting the biggest gun, and that is not a society i want to be a part of. with everyone carrying a gun, we devolve into a society in which disputes are settled by whoever draws fastest rather than through a jury of our peers. if this is really what you envision for America's future, then i have nothing more to add to this discussion.

You choose to interpret encouraging people to own weapons as a bad thing. This is irrational, I advise everyone to keep a first aid kit in their home and car, and to learn how to use them, it is not because I do not trust our hospitals and emergency services nor would everyone having one and trained in its use eliminate hospitals. It might reduce some of our need for hospitals, if people were more versed in basic medicine and had the means to treat on hand, but that hardly seems a bad thing and would certainly not eliminate hospitals.

Your logic is flawed, based on irrational fear rather reason. Me carrying a gun would not represent distrust for the law, the police, or the judicial system. My various and numerous cop friends all carry weapons off duty, they encourage others to do so, and they use the simple logic that a gun on the person of a decent person who is trained in its use is better than a gun on a cop who is five minutes away. Same as my first aid kit in my car is right there and an ambulance is not, it may not help me, it is inferior option to an ambulance and trained paramedics if they are there, but it gives me an option.

And we inevitably return to the 'no gun' option because in spite of your other remarks your remarks above make it clear you consider the idea of even a significant minority of citizens being armed, CCW or open, to be terrifying and sickening to you, with your 'dystopia' remarks. My only conclusion form this is that you're very hostile to guns and have either been cynically lying to me this entire conversation or have severe dissonance on the matter in your own mind.

And this dystopia notion is ridiculous. Ohio alone has over 300,000 CCW permits currently and there has been no outbreaks of vigilante justice or firefights breaking out or duels. PA, with about the same population as us, has 800,000 issued and yet no bloodbath has broken out.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Reply to message
US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1377 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 795 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 394 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 661 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 669 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 707 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 618 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 669 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 638 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 629 Views
Absolutely - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 697 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 743 Views
That would depend, something of equal value - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 636 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 907 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 658 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 710 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 793 Views
some answers - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 1029 Views
Re: some answers - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 792 Views
Re: the NRA - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 653 Views
This is a matter of POV bias - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 586 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 646 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 616 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 590 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 848 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 814 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 822 Views
yes, because it was a failed attempt to re-boot and start the debate from the beginning..... - 24/03/2013 03:33:05 AM 1004 Views
I've difficulty seeing the point of going back to first principles but I'm willing to try - 24/03/2013 02:13:29 PM 625 Views
this has been more insightful than our previous tit-for-tat responses, actually - 26/03/2013 07:40:27 PM 613 Views
There's always room for reaosnable dialogue - 26/03/2013 10:09:58 PM 896 Views
even so, we are at yet another impasse.... - 26/03/2013 11:37:04 PM 713 Views
Probably, I don't know why that surprises you - 27/03/2013 02:02:54 AM 596 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 639 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 349 Views
I can't argue that - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 656 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 728 Views
what is high capacity? - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 619 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 647 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 681 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 630 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 340 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 326 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 350 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 321 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 731 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 662 Views
*NM* - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 349 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 657 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 633 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 673 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 610 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 662 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 333 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 780 Views
For what its worth.... - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 625 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 917 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 927 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 839 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 545 Views

Reply to Message