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the existing laws and how they are enforced are completely different problems moondog Send a noteboard - 20/03/2013 05:32:31 PM

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there are actually a handful of rogue dealers which something on the order of 40% or more of guns pass through on their way to crimes. and there are no federal requirements for dealers to keep an inventory of guns sold. i'm sure there are laws for prosecuting dealers who sell to criminals, but they are rarely enforced. or at least, rarely make the news when/if they are. the kids at columbine got their guns through a dealer who sold it to a friend who was 18. there are shops who sell to gangs and other criminals throughout the country, but the ATF can't prosecute them for various reasons. if anything at all comes from the passage of new legislation, i would be perfectly happy if these dealers were shut down for good.

Federally liscensed dealers (basically all of them) are required to keep a record of all gun sales (failure to do so caries heavy penalties). Those records are available to law enforcement via a court order. The laws against illegal sales are enforced, except when the Justice Department decides to not enforce them and instructs dealers to complete the illegal sales.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensees-records-required.html
http://www.eveningsun.com/news/ci_22690488

Criminals don't buy from gun shops, because they can't pass the background check, they buy from individuals, at inflated prices. Individuals that are a member of a gang who have not yet become criminals can, but rarely do because the transactions are recorded.

As for the Columbine shooters, the individual who obtained them the weapons was the criminal,and subject to 1 to 10 years (depends on if he suspected criminal intent by the minors) in prison for each offense, not the gun dealer who complied with all federal laws regarding the sales and kept records of the sales.



the bill designed to stop trafficking as a felony offense would have made the dealer who sold the gun to the straw buyer at Columbine an accessory to a crime. there are literally thousands of instances every year of people who go into stores with someone who can pass a background check, point out the gun they want, get the other person to buy it for them, and then take the gun home themselves rather than the person whose name is on the books.

as for inventory, let me refer you to a store formerly called "Badger Guns" in Wisconsin. In one year, they reported over 600 "lost" guns and had their license revoked after a multi-year process. their guns were traced to SIX separate incidences of cops getting shot. despite the lax enforcement of the law, the store has had its license revoked twice in the last decade. but yet the same family still owns and operates the store, having passed it from father (license revoked) to son (license revoked) to second son (license still current as of 2010). read up on "Realco Guns" in Maryland and tell me again how the laws are so strict on gun dealers. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/guns/

we also have the so-called "Tiahrt amendment" which prohibits the collecting of data for any but law enforcement purpopses, and prohibits the release of that data to anyone not involved in law enforcement. we are told that this is to prevent the gun dealers from lawsuits, but in reality the way this works is that when/if the ATF inspects a store the best they can do is issue a warning not to lose so much paperwork. if the store has repeated issues, the ATF can recommend revoking the license, but it can take up to two years to revoke a license, during which time the store can continue to sell. if a license gets revoked, the owner can simply have a family member or friend apply for a dealer license and reopen the shop with "new management" but still practicing the same as before. the ATF is also prevented from asking for documents to prove the new licensee is not just trying to skirt the law. if you want to enforce the laws we already have, then lets get rid of the handcuffs and let the law enforcement do their jobs the way they were meant to. otherwise, i'm not really seeing how having weak laws with no enforcement is making anyone any safer.

"The RIAA has shown a certain disregard for the creative people of the industry in their eagerness to protect the revenues of the record companies." -- Frank Zappa

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
lengthy article but please read through to the end
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US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1320 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 735 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 369 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 585 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 608 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 638 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 564 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 603 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 601 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 564 Views
Absolutely - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 640 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 669 Views
That would depend, something of equal value - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 563 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 837 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 590 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 640 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 730 Views
some answers - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 964 Views
Re: some answers - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 734 Views
Re: the NRA - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 581 Views
This is a matter of POV bias - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 525 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 570 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 549 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 528 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 779 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 744 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 758 Views
There are many more laws and regulations on the industry than you seem to be aware of. - 20/03/2013 03:58:19 PM 621 Views
the existing laws and how they are enforced are completely different problems - 20/03/2013 05:32:31 PM 623 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 569 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 315 Views
I can't argue that - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 588 Views
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what is high capacity? - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 547 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 576 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 620 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 559 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 312 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 300 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 328 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 298 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 671 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 583 Views
*NM* - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 323 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 587 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 564 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 609 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 547 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 603 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 306 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 707 Views
For what its worth.... - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 552 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 844 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 859 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 754 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 470 Views

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