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if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? moondog Send a noteboard - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM

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Affiliation tends to blind us to the other side, but I think on gun rights the left perennially forgets that the right is not seeking to change the law, the left is, and nothing is ever offered except a slightly lesser change. I don't want a national gun registry, but many of us might except one in exchange for something else. Minor horse trading is pretty common but nobody wants to do the big stuff anymore. Guns are a big issue to the right, a principal issue, what would the left trade of equal value?


i honestly don't see much in the way of public safety that can be negotiated without some ideas of what you think an honest exchange of ideas would look like. as i've told you before, the government has a vested interest in protecting public safety. gun owners (and even the NRA) talk all the time about being a "responsible gun owner", but every day we see stories of people who are supposedly responsible accidentally shooting friends and family, in many cases resulting in death.

why do we need specific laws (like the Tiahrt amendment) which handcuff the collection of data for academic study, and limit the way law enforcement collects that data? explain to me how being a responsible gun owner or dealer means a store can "lose" over 600 guns in one year and only get a warning not to "lose" any more guns? especially a dealer which has been traced to several hundreds if not thousands of crimes committed with guns they have sold? if we want to talk about enforcing the laws we have, then let's start with actually enforcing the laws rather than throw our hands up in the air and say "oh well, nothing we can do about it now that so many guns are in circulation. if only we hadn't passed legislation preventing us from enforcing the laws we already have."

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US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill Anonymous2000 - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1320 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics moondog - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 735 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* Roland00 - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 369 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... Anonymous2000 - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 584 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." moondog - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 608 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 638 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... moondog - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 563 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions Isaac - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 603 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 601 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? moondog - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 564 Views
Absolutely HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 640 Views
Re: Ben Franklin said it best... Isaac - 21/03/2013 07:16:25 AM 677 Views
There can be NO negotiation, that is the point. This is a Constitutionally protected Right. HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:03:54 PM 620 Views
Including Capital Letters in pronouncements do NOT make something so Isaac - 21/03/2013 02:56:43 PM 624 Views
1st Amendment absolutism suggests libel and slander are unconstitutional. moondog - 21/03/2013 07:24:34 PM 600 Views
One person's rights end where another's begin, as you well know. HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 02:38:37 AM 590 Views
all the same, none of the proposed laws truly infringe on your right to keep or use those guns.... moondog - 22/03/2013 07:29:52 PM 623 Views
Apparently you did not read Feinstein's, you know the one that started this whole thread... HyogaRott - 23/03/2013 06:26:57 PM 598 Views
i'm aware of her statements, you'll have to actually prove your point.... moondog - 24/03/2013 03:35:11 AM 510 Views
Her bill tried to eliminate my (and everone's) right to own all but 2,000 specific weapons. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:30:56 PM 610 Views
"A well-regulated militia...." moondog - 25/03/2013 07:27:48 PM 712 Views
and by REGULATED, the authors meant "able to use it effectively" HyogaRott - 26/03/2013 01:23:07 PM 601 Views
we are long past the point where defense against tyranny is feasible moondog - 26/03/2013 07:48:37 PM 604 Views
Feasibility is not the issue, it is the rule of law. HyogaRott - 27/03/2013 03:55:24 PM 663 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? moondog - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 669 Views
That would depend, something of equal value Isaac - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 563 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? moondog - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 837 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 590 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining moondog - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 640 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 730 Views
some answers moondog - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 964 Views
Re: some answers Isaac - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 734 Views
Re: the NRA moondog - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 581 Views
This is a matter of POV bias Isaac - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 524 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then moondog - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 570 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining Isaac - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 549 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) moondog - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 528 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) Isaac - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 779 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding moondog - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 744 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap Isaac - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 758 Views
yes, because it was a failed attempt to re-boot and start the debate from the beginning..... moondog - 24/03/2013 03:33:05 AM 931 Views
I've difficulty seeing the point of going back to first principles but I'm willing to try Isaac - 24/03/2013 02:13:29 PM 566 Views
this has been more insightful than our previous tit-for-tat responses, actually moondog - 26/03/2013 07:40:27 PM 550 Views
There's always room for reaosnable dialogue Isaac - 26/03/2013 10:09:58 PM 839 Views
even so, we are at yet another impasse.... moondog - 26/03/2013 11:37:04 PM 652 Views
Probably, I don't know why that surprises you Isaac - 27/03/2013 02:02:54 AM 533 Views
There are many more laws and regulations on the industry than you seem to be aware of. HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 03:58:19 PM 621 Views
the existing laws and how they are enforced are completely different problems moondog - 20/03/2013 05:32:31 PM 622 Views
I have no problems with actually enforcing existing laws, in fact I want to see that before new 1 *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 12:17:40 AM 328 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce random thoughts - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 569 Views
as with most laws, some amount of grandfathering will probably be necessary moondog - 20/03/2013 05:34:57 PM 548 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 315 Views
I can't argue that random thoughts - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 587 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting moondog - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 652 Views
what is high capacity? random thoughts - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 546 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit moondog - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 576 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* Nighthawk - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 620 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes Jeordam - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 558 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 312 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* Jeordam - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 300 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 328 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* Nighthawk - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 298 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 671 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 583 Views
*NM* ironclad - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 323 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers Isaac - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 587 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 564 Views
So what's your solution? Smaller sentences? Or death penalty for everybody? Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 06:33:13 PM 584 Views
I don't have a truly viable one. I just have a bunch of ideas that no one would want to enact. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:49:58 PM 589 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book Isaac - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 609 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 547 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop Isaac - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 603 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* Ghavrel - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 306 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice Isaac - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 707 Views
For what its worth.... Jeordam - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 552 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... callandor1000 - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 844 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 859 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... callandor1000 - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 754 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. HyogaRott - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 470 Views
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