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There are many more laws and regulations on the industry than you seem to be aware of. HyogaRott Send a noteboard - 20/03/2013 03:58:19 PM

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there are actually a handful of rogue dealers which something on the order of 40% or more of guns pass through on their way to crimes. and there are no federal requirements for dealers to keep an inventory of guns sold. i'm sure there are laws for prosecuting dealers who sell to criminals, but they are rarely enforced. or at least, rarely make the news when/if they are. the kids at columbine got their guns through a dealer who sold it to a friend who was 18. there are shops who sell to gangs and other criminals throughout the country, but the ATF can't prosecute them for various reasons. if anything at all comes from the passage of new legislation, i would be perfectly happy if these dealers were shut down for good.

Federally liscensed dealers (basically all of them) are required to keep a record of all gun sales (failure to do so caries heavy penalties). Those records are available to law enforcement via a court order. The laws against illegal sales are enforced, except when the Justice Department decides to not enforce them and instructs dealers to complete the illegal sales.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensees-records-required.html
http://www.eveningsun.com/news/ci_22690488

Criminals don't buy from gun shops, because they can't pass the background check, they buy from individuals, at inflated prices. Individuals that are a member of a gang who have not yet become criminals can, but rarely do because the transactions are recorded.

As for the Columbine shooters, the individual who obtained them the weapons was the criminal,and subject to 1 to 10 years (depends on if he suspected criminal intent by the minors) in prison for each offense, not the gun dealer who complied with all federal laws regarding the sales and kept records of the sales.

Federal firearm laws-quick reference
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US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill Anonymous2000 - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1377 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics moondog - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 795 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* Roland00 - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 394 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... Anonymous2000 - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 661 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." moondog - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 669 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 707 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... moondog - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 618 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions Isaac - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 669 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 638 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? moondog - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 629 Views
Absolutely HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 697 Views
Re: Ben Franklin said it best... Isaac - 21/03/2013 07:16:25 AM 741 Views
There can be NO negotiation, that is the point. This is a Constitutionally protected Right. HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:03:54 PM 673 Views
Including Capital Letters in pronouncements do NOT make something so Isaac - 21/03/2013 02:56:43 PM 704 Views
1st Amendment absolutism suggests libel and slander are unconstitutional. moondog - 21/03/2013 07:24:34 PM 670 Views
One person's rights end where another's begin, as you well know. HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 02:38:37 AM 648 Views
all the same, none of the proposed laws truly infringe on your right to keep or use those guns.... moondog - 22/03/2013 07:29:52 PM 706 Views
Apparently you did not read Feinstein's, you know the one that started this whole thread... HyogaRott - 23/03/2013 06:26:57 PM 665 Views
i'm aware of her statements, you'll have to actually prove your point.... moondog - 24/03/2013 03:35:11 AM 578 Views
Her bill tried to eliminate my (and everone's) right to own all but 2,000 specific weapons. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:30:56 PM 667 Views
"A well-regulated militia...." moondog - 25/03/2013 07:27:48 PM 778 Views
and by REGULATED, the authors meant "able to use it effectively" HyogaRott - 26/03/2013 01:23:07 PM 675 Views
we are long past the point where defense against tyranny is feasible moondog - 26/03/2013 07:48:37 PM 660 Views
Feasibility is not the issue, it is the rule of law. HyogaRott - 27/03/2013 03:55:24 PM 735 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? moondog - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 743 Views
That would depend, something of equal value Isaac - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 636 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? moondog - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 907 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 658 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining moondog - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 710 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 793 Views
some answers moondog - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 1030 Views
Re: some answers Isaac - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 792 Views
Re: the NRA moondog - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 653 Views
This is a matter of POV bias Isaac - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 586 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then moondog - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 647 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining Isaac - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 616 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) moondog - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 590 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) Isaac - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 848 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding moondog - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 814 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap Isaac - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 822 Views
yes, because it was a failed attempt to re-boot and start the debate from the beginning..... moondog - 24/03/2013 03:33:05 AM 1004 Views
I've difficulty seeing the point of going back to first principles but I'm willing to try Isaac - 24/03/2013 02:13:29 PM 625 Views
this has been more insightful than our previous tit-for-tat responses, actually moondog - 26/03/2013 07:40:27 PM 613 Views
There's always room for reaosnable dialogue Isaac - 26/03/2013 10:09:58 PM 896 Views
even so, we are at yet another impasse.... moondog - 26/03/2013 11:37:04 PM 713 Views
Probably, I don't know why that surprises you Isaac - 27/03/2013 02:02:54 AM 596 Views
There are many more laws and regulations on the industry than you seem to be aware of. HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 03:58:19 PM 687 Views
the existing laws and how they are enforced are completely different problems moondog - 20/03/2013 05:32:31 PM 694 Views
I have no problems with actually enforcing existing laws, in fact I want to see that before new 1 *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 12:17:40 AM 352 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce random thoughts - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 639 Views
as with most laws, some amount of grandfathering will probably be necessary moondog - 20/03/2013 05:34:57 PM 615 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 349 Views
I can't argue that random thoughts - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 656 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting moondog - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 728 Views
what is high capacity? random thoughts - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 619 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit moondog - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 647 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* Nighthawk - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 681 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes Jeordam - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 630 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 340 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* Jeordam - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 326 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 350 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* Nighthawk - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 321 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 731 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 662 Views
*NM* ironclad - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 349 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers Isaac - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 657 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 633 Views
So what's your solution? Smaller sentences? Or death penalty for everybody? Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 06:33:13 PM 643 Views
I don't have a truly viable one. I just have a bunch of ideas that no one would want to enact. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:49:58 PM 649 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book Isaac - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 673 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 611 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop Isaac - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 663 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* Ghavrel - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 333 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice Isaac - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 780 Views
For what its worth.... Jeordam - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 625 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... callandor1000 - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 918 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 927 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... callandor1000 - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 839 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. HyogaRott - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 546 Views
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