It is insurance against old age poverty, not a longevity lottery.
Joel Send a noteboard - 04/03/2013 02:00:24 AM
View original postMeans testing:
It makes monetary sense ONLY if your remove morality. Contribution to SS is forced by law. In other words the government is going to take my money regardless of my personal desire (except for certain specific occupations that are exempt). Thye are taking that money under the promise that they will return it to me some day (presumably because I can not be trusted to take care of myself). If they (the government) instead looks at me and says "Sorry, you have too much money now we aren't going to give you your money back" That is called theft when done by anyone else, and is a crime.
It makes monetary sense ONLY if your remove morality. Contribution to SS is forced by law. In other words the government is going to take my money regardless of my personal desire (except for certain specific occupations that are exempt). Thye are taking that money under the promise that they will return it to me some day (presumably because I can not be trusted to take care of myself). If they (the government) instead looks at me and says "Sorry, you have too much money now we aren't going to give you your money back" That is called theft when done by anyone else, and is a crime.
Do you give people money back each time they go a year without needing medical care? But you are concerned about compulsory participation, I understand; do you return malpractice premiums to every doctor who retires without filing a claim? No? Have you consulted your lawyer/priest about that?
Quite frankly, no, you can NOT be trusted to take care of yourself, because until SS >50% of Americans >65 lived in poverty. Today it is ~10%.
View original postContribution limits:
The contribution is capped, but so is the eventual pay-out. If you want to remove the contribution limit, go for it, but you have to remove the disbursement limit as well, otherwise you are just stealing money. Mathematically, SS can't handle the increased pay-out so there is no "fair" argument for eliminating the contribution limit.
The contribution is capped, but so is the eventual pay-out. If you want to remove the contribution limit, go for it, but you have to remove the disbursement limit as well, otherwise you are just stealing money. Mathematically, SS can't handle the increased pay-out so there is no "fair" argument for eliminating the contribution limit.
How is the payout capped? Like, when people hit 95 they say, "sorry, that is all the money you contributed; no more benefits for you." No, people who live to 120 keep getting benefits each month of every year, however much they paid. Since US life expectancy is 13 years higher than when SS was created it is not only reasonable but wise to proportionally increase the witholding limit. Again, there is more money in the trust fund now than six months ago, because most people have not yet hit this years witholding limit, and no one has been stupid enough to say, "hey, SS is going broke; why not declare yet another witholding 'holiday' and pretend the people enjoying it will not have to pay for it when they are 70?" Just removing the witholding limit would fund the supposed "unsustainable Ponzi scheme" indefinitely.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 04/03/2013 at 02:03:04 AM
Can You Name the Largest US Program to ANNUALLY Collect More Than It Spent for 75 Straight Years?
- 28/02/2013 11:03:18 PM
1315 Views
Medicare? *NM*
- 28/02/2013 11:38:22 PM
524 Views
No, Medicare has only been around about half as long.
- 28/02/2013 11:56:32 PM
816 Views
Medicare has its own problems, and caused many more. You really do not want to have this debate.
- 03/03/2013 03:03:15 PM
736 Views
No, I do not, because Medicare and torts are invariably scapegoated for all problems with healthcare
- 04/03/2013 12:52:37 AM
803 Views
I can argue with anyone on this (and have) btut first we need to break out that dictionary
- 04/03/2013 04:45:06 AM
724 Views
I am sure you can and have; ability to form arguments does not automatically grant them validity.
- 11/03/2013 09:56:11 PM
791 Views
Like I said, short conversation, once everyone uses the same definitions.
- 13/03/2013 03:28:52 PM
787 Views
From the way you're shitting yourself with glee, I'm going to say Social Security.
- 01/03/2013 12:45:50 AM
911 Views
Also unlike Ponzis, Social Security was not meant to profit—it just did anyway. For 75 years.
- 01/03/2013 01:55:46 AM
759 Views
It is a "Ponzi" by definition, any argument to the contrary just makes you look ignorant.
- 02/03/2013 12:02:46 PM
827 Views
Wait: An insurer is saying insurance is a Ponzi scheme? 
- 04/03/2013 12:56:30 AM
795 Views
- 04/03/2013 12:56:30 AM
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You are making even lese sense than usual... Quite an acomplishment. *NM*
- 04/03/2013 03:31:39 AM
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Maybe, but my math usually checks, and I never have to explain what I omitted.
- 11/03/2013 09:55:50 PM
882 Views
My math ALWAYS "checks" - it isn't personal, you are just making absolutely no sense, *NM*
- 13/03/2013 03:27:11 PM
432 Views
It's the world's greatest Ponzi scheme, since the government forces us to give money to it.
- 01/03/2013 01:05:05 PM
749 Views
Yes, "government forcing people to give money" defines a Ponzi; speeding tickets are Ponzis. 
- 01/03/2013 03:53:02 PM
877 Views
- 01/03/2013 03:53:02 PM
877 Views
Good lord my friend.....
- 02/03/2013 04:19:35 AM
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I will just link what Isaac said; maybe then you will pay attention to it.
- 02/03/2013 04:56:34 AM
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I really think you terribly misread what I said *NM*
- 02/03/2013 06:59:56 AM
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I really do not think I did.
- 04/03/2013 01:43:02 AM
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I'm pretty confident you have
- 04/03/2013 11:49:19 AM
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We evidently disagree on what constitutes a Ponzi scheme.
- 11/03/2013 09:56:27 PM
777 Views
No, I agree with a clear definiton, you seem not to want to absorb that
- 11/03/2013 10:24:47 PM
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Re: Yes, "government forcing people to give money" defines a Ponzi; speeding tickets are Ponzis.
- 02/03/2013 12:22:34 PM
846 Views
- 02/03/2013 12:22:34 PM
846 Views
Fraud="money contributed is NOT invested for the contributor, but instead redistributed to others"?
- 04/03/2013 12:51:30 AM
773 Views
You can try and misrepresent what I have said all you want, you are still wrong.
- 04/03/2013 03:45:24 AM
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Dude, how is QUOTING you misrepresenting you?! And why must I ALWAYS ask that in these threads?
- 11/03/2013 09:56:18 PM
825 Views
- 11/03/2013 09:56:18 PM
825 Views
Okay, that's a really weird or naive standard to judge SS by
- 01/03/2013 05:25:11 PM
799 Views
Great; will you put that on a postcard to Cannoli, A2K, Rick Perry and the rest of your party?
- 01/03/2013 07:39:44 PM
822 Views
- 01/03/2013 07:39:44 PM
822 Views
I don't think I'd be telling them anything they don't already know... I mostly agree with them
- 02/03/2013 05:38:56 AM
936 Views
Means testing is flat out WRONG, and the contribution limit is a sticky debate
- 02/03/2013 12:43:09 PM
750 Views
Tell that to him not me, I didn't express an opinion and my implied one obviously doesn't favor it
- 02/03/2013 05:28:14 PM
882 Views
I was, I just hit the repy under the wrong post. He was the first to bering the two topics up. *NM*
- 03/03/2013 04:09:34 AM
431 Views
It is insurance against old age poverty, not a longevity lottery.
- 04/03/2013 02:00:24 AM
857 Views
It is not insurance, it is a pension plan, that also contains an overpriced LT disability insurance.
- 04/03/2013 04:00:42 AM
854 Views
Social Security Insurance; says so right on the label.
- 11/03/2013 09:53:33 PM
992 Views
You can call it BedroomWindowVitamins but it does not change what it acutally IS.
- 13/03/2013 04:34:42 PM
771 Views
"Sustainable"=/="profitable;" bankruptcy was not always a given, as your fellows claim..
- 04/03/2013 01:35:04 AM
755 Views
Sustainable often means profitable, they are not universally synonmous but both at once is ideal
- 04/03/2013 12:25:45 PM
753 Views
That is the IDEAL, but NOT point: Sustainability needs no profit, yet profit ensures sustainability.
- 11/03/2013 09:56:48 PM
1211 Views
Your attacks on republican ideals would have more credit if you understood them
- 02/03/2013 04:27:34 AM
808 Views
An ironic charge, since their defenses of those ideals typically suffer from the same defect.
- 02/03/2013 04:51:32 AM
786 Views
- 02/03/2013 04:51:32 AM
786 Views
I'm rubber you're glue, whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you. nyah, nyah, nyah
- 02/03/2013 12:58:10 PM
730 Views
"Unsustainable"=/="meeting monthly obligations for 75 YEARS and still having $2.5 trillion left."
- 04/03/2013 01:03:09 AM
847 Views
Please look up the definition of sustainable. Hint: "its worked so far" isn't it.
- 04/03/2013 04:25:19 AM
812 Views
"As it is currently constructed/funded" is one HELL of a qualifier.
- 04/03/2013 04:41:30 AM
873 Views
You just don't get it, or apparently are so in love with your political ideology you won't.
- 04/03/2013 04:58:15 AM
680 Views
I believe if you check civilizations record you will find the human population has steadily risen.
- 04/03/2013 05:08:38 AM
787 Views
*sigh*
- 04/03/2013 12:15:22 PM
744 Views
Birth RATES have fallen; POPULATION steadily rose in every period except the Black Deaths peak.
- 11/03/2013 09:56:36 PM
1010 Views
Ironic that you would make my point while arguing against
- 04/03/2013 06:12:29 PM
695 Views
?
- 11/03/2013 09:56:59 PM
862 Views
you mistate his posistion and then rationalize that you know what he really meant
- 13/03/2013 12:06:44 PM
709 Views
aH yes the great liberal investmetn/retirement plan that offers me a NEGATIGVE rate of return...
- 02/03/2013 11:51:50 AM
724 Views
Do you sincerely believe people earning $14,560/year can afford investing 4% of it?
- 04/03/2013 12:53:30 AM
884 Views
*sigh*
- 04/03/2013 03:43:08 AM
716 Views
I tried it with compound interest; $44.80/month at 4% for 50 years still does not get to $1.25 mill.
- 04/03/2013 04:24:51 AM
797 Views
Here are some clues.
- 04/03/2013 04:37:39 AM
662 Views
It is math, not the Riddle of the Sphinx: EIther it adds up or does not.
- 04/03/2013 05:02:39 AM
814 Views
Math is simple - Either you know how to calculate it or you don't
- 04/03/2013 11:55:24 AM
896 Views
SS is supposed to supplement a proper pension, not provide your sole income after retirement
- 05/03/2013 03:53:03 AM
677 Views
Did you bother to actually read anything?
- 05/03/2013 02:32:16 PM
747 Views
do *YOU* know what "living in poverty" means?
- 05/03/2013 05:49:14 PM
810 Views
Re: do *YOU* know what "living in poverty" means? --- yeah, I've BEEN there.
- 05/03/2013 08:01:33 PM
786 Views
how about respond to a post with logic and civility instead of being a troll for once?
- 05/03/2013 11:03:00 PM
871 Views
All I have used is civility and logic, or least as much civility as was warrented.
- 06/03/2013 04:28:04 AM
822 Views
yeah, it's my fault for stooping to your level....
- 08/03/2013 07:22:24 PM
860 Views
Re: yeah, it's my fault for stooping to your level....
- 10/03/2013 01:42:26 PM
733 Views
i'm not going to keep going in circles so i will finish with this....
- 11/03/2013 10:08:53 PM
1080 Views
"Rah! Rah! Rah!" Can we please cut out all this blather and bile?
- 05/03/2013 11:53:41 PM
751 Views