The children are what matter, not the school. Surely this isn't something you disagree on?
snoopcester Send a noteboard - 29/12/2012 02:15:12 PM
Where does he say ADDITIONAL cops are needed? He said cops at schools, in any number, cannot prevent school shootings if diverted FROM schools.
I never claimed he said otherwise, did I?
With respect, all I can suggest is reading what the officer said rather than what one WISHES he had said. Frankly, I do not see how you can read a cop at Columbine saying armed cops AT (not NEAR) the school would have prevented the shootings to mean just the opposite.
With all due respect, Joel, I did read what he said. Perhaps you need to read what the report and I actually said and not what you think want to read?
He was guarding a group of children from the school - arguing that he would have stopped it happening if only he'd been in the right place at the right time is a nonsense argument, because his job isn't to just protect one child in on location.
His comments read to me like someone trying to make himself feel better about failing at something he was unlikely to ever succeed at, he doesn't offer a well thought out analysis here no matter how much you want it to be.
No, but I have always considered sending cops to schools to prevent truancy and smoking an appalling waste of public servants and tax money. A handful of students sneaking off campus to smoke face little risk of being shot by someone who goes TO campus to shoot large collections of students. Granted, we are not dealing with rational minds here, but I cannot imagine anyone going through the woods behind a school hoping to find large numbers of people to shoot when they are guaranteed such numbers WITHIN the school.
They were monitoring students in the “Smokers’ Pit,” a spot just to the northwest of campus in Clement Park where the students congregated to smoke cigarettes.
This hardly sounds as if the shooters would have randomly wandering through woods near the school but a group of kids who went to the same spot at the same time every day.
It is presumptuous to think a cop trained to prevent mass shootings and stationed at a school for that purpose would expect a mass shooting? Does fulfilling their job description surprise anyone else? If heavily armed gunmen are confronted with someone trained and armed to stop them, I will bet on the guy with the training and expectation rather than the nutter who just stopped by the gunshop on his way there.
Sorry Joel, you seem to have trouble understanding what I've said, again. You are very good at reading what you want to argue against though, so kudos there.
Schools are busy environment with people constantly coming in and out of them carrying all sorts of packages and in the US a fraction of 1% suffer armed attacks each year or even each decade (century in fact). Someone coming in with an assault rifle looking for the armed guard is obviously going to have a good chance of getting the drop on an armed guard who has seen 100s of people come past him every day year after year - the simple fact is that humans settle into routine very quickly, let alone after years of the routine.
Then again, I cannot recall any mass shootings anywhere trained and armed cops were present; they seem to prefer defenseless victims. The closest thing I can recall to a mass shooting where people were trained and armed was the Ft. Hood shooting, but since guns were (inexplicably) prohibited at the military base none of the training did any of the unarmed soldiers any good. The first trained and armed people on the scene PROMPTLY stopped the shooter, but before they arrived he had already killed 13 people and wounded more than 20 others.
There were armed police on the base - much like an armed policeman at a high school, they aren't able to be everywhere at once.
Also "since guns were (inexplicably) prohibited at the military base". Really?
I can't be bothered to go look but I'm willing to bet there is an explanation
*MySmiley*
Robert Graves "There is no money in poetry, but then there is no poetry in money, either."
Henning Mankell "We must defend the open society, because if we start locking our doors, if we let fear decide, the person who committed the act of terror will win"
Robert Graves "There is no money in poetry, but then there is no poetry in money, either."
Henning Mankell "We must defend the open society, because if we start locking our doors, if we let fear decide, the person who committed the act of terror will win"
the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics
22/12/2012 04:40:26 PM
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I do not see why calling for armed cops at schools is an unreasonable response.
22/12/2012 04:53:06 PM
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I can think of two reasons off the top of my head
22/12/2012 05:38:19 PM
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If the schools that the children of our elected representatives attend are gaurded, so should mine.
26/12/2012 03:00:35 PM
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If someone is shooting at you having a gun to shoot back seems like a good idea
26/12/2012 06:10:07 PM
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The effectiveness issue aside
22/12/2012 06:13:30 PM
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Re: The effectiveness issue aside
22/12/2012 06:59:36 PM
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If you think it would solve the debate then probably
22/12/2012 07:09:42 PM
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Nothing will ever truly end the debate, but we can greatly reduce or end its justification.
22/12/2012 08:03:39 PM
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If it's shown to work
23/12/2012 12:25:38 AM
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Of the many school shootings in recent years, I am aware of none where armed cops were present.
23/12/2012 12:47:32 AM
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columbine had two armed guards on the day of the shooting. they were both immediately fired upon...
23/12/2012 12:49:30 AM
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I have never seen any mention of them among the injured or dead (or at all.)
23/12/2012 01:09:38 AM
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you should try harder
23/12/2012 01:15:34 AM
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"a motorcycle patrolman who was near the school writing a speeding ticket" is not stationed there.
23/12/2012 01:34:50 AM
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he still didn't stop the shooting, whether he was there before or after it started
23/12/2012 01:49:24 AM
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No kidding; how could he stop the shooting before it started if he was not there?
23/12/2012 02:16:59 AM
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A fuller account of Gardner
23/12/2012 10:27:24 AM
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Nice link.
23/12/2012 02:27:30 PM
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Re: Nice link.
23/12/2012 03:15:24 PM
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Inexplicably, Ft. Hood was a gun free zone (guess no one told the shooter.)
26/12/2012 06:12:42 PM
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Re: Nice link.
23/12/2012 04:21:27 PM
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Gardner:If you’re going to put a police officer in a school, make sure his focus stays on the school
26/12/2012 06:40:41 PM
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The children are what matter, not the school. Surely this isn't something you disagree on?
29/12/2012 02:15:12 PM
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As usual Moondog, you are missing a BUNCH of facts on this one (links inside)
26/12/2012 07:51:29 PM
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at last count, over 99,000 schools in the US
23/12/2012 12:45:30 AM
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What is public safety worth to you?
23/12/2012 12:54:04 AM
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it's not entirely a matter of cost, although that factors into it.
23/12/2012 01:01:50 AM
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There are many cases where armed cops ended mass shootings.
23/12/2012 01:28:25 AM
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there are none where an armed guard placed there *before* the shooting had any effect
23/12/2012 01:36:42 AM
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Kind of a Catch-22; if they PREVENT shootings, shootings can only occur in their absence.
23/12/2012 01:52:03 AM
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ok, here is my last word on the subject
23/12/2012 02:06:49 AM
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9 people injured vs. 20 people dead.
23/12/2012 02:34:00 AM
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it is still "more guns makes us safer" which has yet to prevent a single massacre in this country
23/12/2012 02:41:56 PM
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Care to prove that negative? The burden to do so is on you as the person who made the assertion.
26/12/2012 06:47:07 PM
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It doesn't have to be a full time gaurd standing looking dangerous.
26/12/2012 06:12:14 PM
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Re: the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics
22/12/2012 06:36:32 PM
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I believe it is fairly common in junior and high schools today, but not elementary schools.
22/12/2012 07:12:32 PM
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This entire post is completely irrelevant.
22/12/2012 07:27:45 PM
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Those who want univeral prohibition/access are equally fringe minorities.
22/12/2012 08:18:00 PM
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there is no Left or Right on this issue, there is only Sane and Insane
23/12/2012 12:59:08 AM
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also: it's insulting to tell parents their kids would be alive if only more guns were around
23/12/2012 01:30:53 AM
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People die from all sort of causes
22/12/2012 07:27:53 PM
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Cars require training, certification and licensing, too; why should guns not?
22/12/2012 08:25:43 PM
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Do bombs require certification?
22/12/2012 09:21:25 PM
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No, they are pretty much illegal for the general public under all conditions.
22/12/2012 09:35:35 PM
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i say this with all due respect -- eat a bag of dicks
23/12/2012 01:04:08 AM
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That was pretty damn respectful under the circumstances.
23/12/2012 01:10:04 AM
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The lack of intellect displayed here is to be expected
23/12/2012 04:01:32 AM
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so according to you we should just make life illegal since everyone is going to die from something..
23/12/2012 07:25:05 AM
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Obviously you didn't put pay attention
23/12/2012 01:40:17 PM
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no, you said "fuck it because people die anyway". there is a big difference
23/12/2012 02:46:46 PM
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Dicks and stones
23/12/2012 03:54:25 AM
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cars and guns kill roughly the same number of people every year -- around 30,000 give or take
23/12/2012 01:02:44 AM
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But over half of gun deaths are suicide.....so cars are much more dangerous to society. *NM*
23/12/2012 05:35:45 AM
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Every year is iffy there, it dropped off the last two, was 40k-50k plus for cars since 1962
23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM
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except that cars are legislated to be safer every year, guns aren't.
23/12/2012 03:01:36 PM
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Guns are for killing, cars are for transport, cars aren't any safer now against use for homicide
23/12/2012 08:22:13 PM
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but if we are trying to minimize the number of deaths, then more MUST be done for gun laws
24/12/2012 03:33:31 AM
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More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
24/12/2012 04:27:04 AM
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Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
25/12/2012 04:49:54 PM
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Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
25/12/2012 08:41:53 PM
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Here is some interesting data.....knives are as dangerous as "non-handguns"
23/12/2012 05:45:08 AM
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I hope you don't mind me taking this opportunity to plug my new book, "How to Cook with Guns" *NM*
23/12/2012 03:04:06 PM
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there was a school mass stabbing in china the same day as sandy hook
23/12/2012 03:18:00 PM
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I am equally happy that the criminal was incompetant, but that does not diminish their lethality
27/12/2012 10:45:33 PM
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I'm not sure it's about guns.
23/12/2012 06:08:50 PM
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IMO it is about the media attention focuised on the perpetrator. Their name becomes history. *NM*
27/12/2012 10:47:15 PM
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