Never point a gun at anything you are not going to shoot, nor shoot anything you do not mean to kill
Joel Send a noteboard - 28/12/2012 06:13:20 PM
This is a slightly less practical and more philosophical point, but I think it's important to consider. No one will ever argue that it would have been somehow bad or immoral to shoot and kill a guy murdering a classroom of kindergarteners. But, like the article says, the chance of such a clear-cut, black and white scenario involving guns happening to you is pretty unlikely. Instead, you have a lot of slightly more murky situations: you are being robbed, or raped, or just kind of threatened, or whatever, and you pull a gun and fire on your assailant and hopefully they die.
The author of the article explains that "When I said “stop an attacker quickly” somebody on Twitter thought that he’d gotten me and said “Stop. That’s just a euphemism for kill!” Nope. I am perfectly happy if the attacker surrenders or passes out from blood loss too. Tactically and legally, all I care about is making them stop doing whatever it is that they are doing which caused me to shoot them to begin with."
But, really? Guns aren't meant to disable, injure, or stun opponents, they're meant to kill them. I can't really condemn the use of guns for self-defense, but I can't whole-heartedly support it either. The penalty for small-time robbery or even physical assault isn't death, and it probably shouldn't be. By putting guns into the hands of regular, every day civilians you're not only betting that they will be stand-up guys who will only use their weapons appropriately in situations of duress, but also essentially giving them license and immunity to take other peoples' lives. Yes, bad guys can and do take other peoples' lives and that is wrong. But is it a good thing to have the right to quickly and easily kill anyone committing any sort of crime against you?
The author of the article explains that "When I said “stop an attacker quickly” somebody on Twitter thought that he’d gotten me and said “Stop. That’s just a euphemism for kill!” Nope. I am perfectly happy if the attacker surrenders or passes out from blood loss too. Tactically and legally, all I care about is making them stop doing whatever it is that they are doing which caused me to shoot them to begin with."
But, really? Guns aren't meant to disable, injure, or stun opponents, they're meant to kill them. I can't really condemn the use of guns for self-defense, but I can't whole-heartedly support it either. The penalty for small-time robbery or even physical assault isn't death, and it probably shouldn't be. By putting guns into the hands of regular, every day civilians you're not only betting that they will be stand-up guys who will only use their weapons appropriately in situations of duress, but also essentially giving them license and immunity to take other peoples' lives. Yes, bad guys can and do take other peoples' lives and that is wrong. But is it a good thing to have the right to quickly and easily kill anyone committing any sort of crime against you?
That is the rule I was always taught. This is not the first time I have seen ardent pro-gun advocates laud THIS ardent pro-gun advocates ardently pro-gun article as the greatest feat of logic since Oliver Wendell Holmes died. That means little, because the article is often factually challenged and/or disingenuous. Examples:
1) An off duty COP (i.e. someone screened, trained and licensed to have a gun) stopping a shooting does not mean EVERYONE should be able to get a gun.
2) Gun control did not prevent the stabber in China attacking >20 kids, but probably did prevent ANY deaths (unlike in three US mass shootings since July.)
Preaching to the choir usually prompts a hearty "AMEN!" but means little.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
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Love still can't be coerced.
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 28/12/2012 at 06:29:00 PM
Poll: 54 percent view NRA favorably
28/12/2012 04:23:35 AM
- 971 Views
Hahahaha. That is full of shit. OMG. Thanks for the laughs. *NM*
28/12/2012 06:30:08 AM
- 407 Views
I have this to say about that...
28/12/2012 07:10:52 AM
- 769 Views
That was rather long but probably one of the best things I've read this year
28/12/2012 02:31:24 PM
- 547 Views
Excellent article by a knowledgable individual armed with facts. *NM*
28/12/2012 04:36:23 PM
- 271 Views
See my response to Novo.
28/12/2012 06:28:00 PM
- 637 Views
please cite the errors, manipulations, or lies.
28/12/2012 09:30:28 PM
- 592 Views
I cited two in response to her, and those were just the ones I remember off the top of my head.
28/12/2012 11:07:36 PM
- 723 Views
If you can't remember them, then don't claim them *NM*
29/12/2012 03:08:08 AM
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Two just from memory is enough to substantiate my claim.
29/12/2012 03:35:49 AM
- 611 Views
'Substantiate your claim'? I don't think you're lying, I just don't feel any reason to be swayed...
29/12/2012 04:00:10 AM
- 512 Views
The 2 things you attempted to "cite" were absolute nonsense and proved nothing.
31/12/2012 06:00:00 PM
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Re: I have this to say about that...
28/12/2012 05:23:44 PM
- 650 Views
Never point a gun at anything you are not going to shoot, nor shoot anything you do not mean to kill
28/12/2012 06:13:20 PM
- 611 Views
Still losing the gun debate and it's driving you a little crazy isn't it!
28/12/2012 06:40:51 PM
- 483 Views
Gallup: 58% want more gun control; Ipsos: 70% want more gun control, 90% want background checks.
28/12/2012 10:29:50 PM
- 630 Views
..and 100% want to win the lottery, but it isn't going to happen.
05/01/2013 02:17:50 PM
- 663 Views
Re: I have this to say about that...Actually, modern military weapons are constructed to wound
29/12/2012 08:43:49 PM
- 720 Views
Yeah, uh, no. Not until you do some serious background checks on teachers.
29/12/2012 01:00:20 AM
- 659 Views
GOP estimates of teacher competence have increased to the point of giving them concealed guns.
29/12/2012 02:36:08 AM
- 750 Views
You know the GOP is unlikely to object to background check on teachers, the unions might
29/12/2012 02:56:06 AM
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his premise is "there's already too many guns so why bother trying anything at all now"
07/01/2013 06:27:20 PM
- 622 Views
I don't think that's his sole premise but it's also quite true
07/01/2013 07:05:20 PM
- 651 Views
i think you're missing a piece of the puzzle
07/01/2013 07:23:02 PM
- 574 Views
I'm not missing it, I just don't think it's wise or especially moral
07/01/2013 09:36:05 PM
- 615 Views
moral has nothing to do with it, imho
07/01/2013 11:26:00 PM
- 667 Views
Data is data my friend. Please feel free to present your own data if you would like. *NM*
28/12/2012 05:49:09 PM
- 296 Views
Is that the same Gallup that said 54% of America would vote Romney?
28/12/2012 06:15:43 PM
- 674 Views
Once again data is data.....feel free to cite other polling data. *NM*
28/12/2012 06:38:29 PM
- 288 Views
The goddamn frigging election. *NM*
28/12/2012 07:13:04 PM
- 293 Views
Oh, was the NRA running for something? Good grief, was a ridiculous reach. *NM*
28/12/2012 08:07:56 PM
- 297 Views
No, but it shows Gallup polls are horseshit. *NM*
28/12/2012 08:48:12 PM
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No it doesn't, it only shows that Romney was more awful of a candidate than Obama was. *NM*
28/12/2012 09:14:00 PM
- 302 Views
Not according to Gallup, just most US voters; Gallup DOES say 58% of the US wants more gun control.
28/12/2012 10:22:19 PM
- 785 Views
Yes. Most of us aren't against guns per se; we're against the inane concepts of gun "shows"
29/12/2012 01:06:50 AM
- 525 Views
Exactly, crazy libs like Joel want to get rid of all guns, but normal Americans.....
29/12/2012 01:36:00 AM
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Too bad the radical fringe on both sides drowns us both out so well.
29/12/2012 02:25:31 AM
- 679 Views
Previous polling failures by Gallup are evidence for the claim that Gallup polls are flawed.
29/12/2012 01:05:08 AM
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Gallup was Romney +1 with +/- 4% on Election Day.....turned out Obama +3.
29/12/2012 01:33:45 AM
- 522 Views
So what I don't understand about this whole teachers with gun thing
30/12/2012 12:42:05 AM
- 661 Views
It would strictly be voluntary
30/12/2012 03:02:18 AM
- 639 Views
You seriously don't think a linebacker can take a gun off a 5' teacher?He can just punch her.
30/12/2012 09:45:05 AM
- 618 Views
He can already punch her, not all schools are high schools and that's not the norm for spree killers
30/12/2012 03:05:55 PM
- 716 Views
Leveling that playing field is much of the point of guns.
05/01/2013 05:43:47 PM
- 665 Views
You aren't familiar with guns if you think that a large male can't disarm a woman who has one.
07/01/2013 10:14:21 AM
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Well Paul Ali Slater didn't, disarming is risky, and he seems familiar enough with them to me *NM*
07/01/2013 01:25:28 PM
- 325 Views