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So you are saying you do not need a gun then? I will keep mine anyway, thanks. Joel Send a noteboard - 28/12/2012 04:19:03 PM
A reasonably inteligent individual (hell even a stupid one), who decides to kill someone, can. All day, every day, we are surrounded by objects that can be used for lethal purposed. Heck, my coffee mug can inflict a fatal injury (admitadly it is quite large, I really REALLY drink a lot of coffee). A gun is just one toll that can be used, and it is an efficient one, but it is only a tool.

NO correlation?! :shocked: Are you seriously contending people who want to kill someone choose the means at random, or that it is irrelevant to their success? Then a gun is unnecessary for self-defense; it is a tool that can be so used, and an efficient one, but only one of many just as good. Needless to say, I disagree.

If you want to kill a bunch of people, a gun is nott what you use, it is explosives or poisons

http://www.google.com/search?q=MUSTARD+GAS+RECIPE&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&safe=active

http://www.google.com/search?q=HOMEMADE+EXPLOSIVE&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&safe=active

http://www.google.com/search?q=HOMEMADE+NAPALM&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&safe=active

It is rather easy to do.

It is also rather easy to be sent to prison trying; homemade explosives and chemical weapons are HIGHLY illegal. Sure, anyone can legally get explosives and kill many people—IF they pass background checks and fill out slews of paperwork for the government. If you are suggesting the same should be true of guns, we are in complete agreement; if not, comparing guns to explosives is a false equivalence. Explosives do not justify unregulated guns either way.

People use a gun for many possible reasons, but "it is the best way" is not one of them. Frankly I just lump them all unde the word "coward" and move on.

Again, by that logic neither you nor anyone needs a gun; defend yourself with an explosive coffee mug. ;)

Restricting gun ownership does NOT save lives. Want proof? Look at the muder rates of Chicago, Detroit, Washington DC, and Houston. Chicago is the only one with a larger population than Houston, DC & Detroit are about a third the size of Houson. However, every single one of those cities has a MUCH higher murder (and gun violence) rate than Houston. They also have VERY restrictive gun laws.

I was born and raised in Houston; when Lee Brown was police chief it had the highest murder rate of any city in the US, until he went to DC and it gained that dubious "honor." There is a lot more that goes into that than gun laws. For example, Detroit and DC are also riddled with poverty, and crime rates in general tend to be proportional to poverty.

PLEASE find 1 example of a city/county/state in the US with lax gun laws and a higher murder/violence rate than a comparative location with restrictive gun laws. Good luck.

I will go you one better: The US, Switzerland, Finland and Sweden are all in the top ten for per capita gun ownership, and the next highest per capita gun ownership is in Norway, France, Canada, Austria, Germany and Iceland. That is 10 of the 16 countries with the highest per capita gun ownership; the other 6 consist of Saudi Arabia and war zones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Yet only the US, Canada and Switzerland make the top twenty for per capita gun deaths; that it is much EASIER to get a gun in those countries likely accounts for the difference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Most significantly, Finland, Sweden, Norway, France, Austria, Germany and Iceland all have some of the strictest gun control AND highest per capita gun ownership in the world. That bears repeating: Most nations with the highest per capita gun ownership also have the strictest gun control. If gun control=gun bans, they are doing a very poor job of it. The difference is not that America has lots of guns, but that we let any monkey with a few hundred dollars legally buy one.
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When guns are a big national issue, how do reporters & pundits not know facts about them? Cannoli - 21/12/2012 05:33:14 PM 1538 Views
You don't hunt by walking into a classroom and shooting 20 deer TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 05:56:16 PM 991 Views
You're actually not right on that one Isaac - 21/12/2012 07:49:53 PM 920 Views
That wasn't the point I was making TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 09:49:40 PM 865 Views
You should probably clarify it then Isaac - 21/12/2012 10:47:26 PM 1021 Views
His post was perfectly clear. Yours seemed like a response to an entirely different post. Narg - 21/12/2012 10:53:39 PM 1177 Views
Explain that remark, it is not obvious to me *NM* Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:00:10 PM 529 Views
I think TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:13:34 PM 852 Views
Thats' easy, there is simply no such thing as a 'hunting rifle' Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:17:41 PM 860 Views
I'd say the expert gunsmith TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:28:02 PM 906 Views
I'm also an expert at math and physics, should I be more forgiving about those too? Isaac - 22/12/2012 12:38:45 AM 848 Views
Re: I'm also an expert at math and physics, should I be more forgiving about those too? TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 01:00:18 AM 875 Views
Well I appreciate your calling it pedantic when you aren't an expert, thanks for correcting me Isaac - 22/12/2012 01:15:08 AM 933 Views
Re: Well I appreciate your calling it pedantic when you aren't an expert, thanks for correcting me TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 09:35:38 AM 1066 Views
So much for serious conversation Isaac - 22/12/2012 05:09:08 PM 868 Views
Oh I'm certainly bowing out TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 06:07:11 PM 865 Views
I thought I was being perfectly clear. TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 10:57:35 PM 870 Views
Re: I thought I was being perfectly clear. Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:25:04 PM 921 Views
Oh I wasn't commenting on the standard of people here TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:29:36 PM 841 Views
A bit of an aside, but I was reading that the gun used in the attack can be bought in Canada too. Nate - 21/12/2012 06:14:01 PM 875 Views
you're largely correct, which is why we need stronger laws on ownership not guns per se moondog - 21/12/2012 09:39:14 PM 831 Views
I can't think of a better reason than self defense Isaac - 21/12/2012 10:33:26 PM 890 Views
He is right about Australia TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 10:46:27 PM 868 Views
No kidding Isaac - 21/12/2012 10:59:28 PM 855 Views
If you knew all that TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:02:38 PM 880 Views
Because I used wiki of course Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:21:25 PM 927 Views
He said ""self defense" is not a valid excuse to own a lethal weapon" TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:34:59 PM 801 Views
Yes,which is un-cited, but I did prove it's a valid excuse to use one, so... Isaac - 22/12/2012 12:36:19 AM 929 Views
The difference between allowing someone to defend themselves with a gun they have TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 01:09:40 AM 843 Views
Which you apparently think they shouldn't be able to obtain? Catch-22 comes to mind. Isaac - 22/12/2012 01:17:25 AM 888 Views
Re: Which you apparently think they shouldn't be able to obtain? Catch-22 comes to mind. TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 09:51:51 AM 907 Views
A wood chipper isn't a gun, and evidence without proof isn't evidence Isaac - 22/12/2012 06:10:34 PM 854 Views
If only you'd asked him for a citation rather than just saying you thought he was wrong eh? *NM* TheCrownless - 23/12/2012 12:29:30 AM 639 Views
Same thing, don't split hairs *NM* Isaac - 23/12/2012 12:43:44 AM 602 Views
I think you are on the right track, but to the wrong destination; "lethal weapon" is redundant. Joel - 21/12/2012 11:05:29 PM 863 Views
My read is that the 2nd Amendment not only allows, but mandates, cop-killer bullets. Cannoli - 22/12/2012 12:45:04 AM 903 Views
Does the Second Amendment protect the rights of felons and the mentally incompetent to have guns? Joel - 22/12/2012 02:35:16 AM 1067 Views
Court rulings have determined that your Constitutional Rights can be restricted for felony/insanity *NM* HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 12:59:31 PM 559 Views
Activist judges should not make law. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:04:42 PM 878 Views
I agree, but the courts have already ruled that way so we are stuck. *NM* HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:03:35 PM 525 Views
Then I guess we need the courts to rule gun owners need screening, training and licensing. Joel - 26/12/2012 03:46:05 PM 871 Views
No, if you want to restrict the 2nd (or any other amendment) amend the Constitution HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 07:56:19 PM 841 Views
I do not want to restrict the Second Amendment, only enact the regulations it explictly allows. Joel - 26/12/2012 08:50:09 PM 907 Views
I disagree with your interpretation. The simple EXISTANCE of the BoR makes it binding on the states HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 03:46:17 PM 871 Views
"Congress shall make no law..." restricts the STATES? How, exactly? Joel - 28/12/2012 03:03:19 PM 835 Views
The 2nd amendment does not mention Congress in any way. There is that reading issue again. HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:02:41 PM 781 Views
You said, "the Bill of Rights," not "the Second Amendment." Joel - 28/12/2012 11:10:00 PM 872 Views
Copy-N-Paste, get over it. we are specifically discussing the 2nd amendment, not everything. HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 02:24:30 PM 762 Views
Some semi-autos are easily modified for full auto fire, making the distinction one w/o a difference. Joel - 21/12/2012 10:53:59 PM 942 Views
Correction: virtually all semi-automatics are easily convertable Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:23:35 PM 880 Views
How many of the people I was complaining about would know that? Cannoli - 22/12/2012 12:48:59 AM 869 Views
Some, possibly? I am ever the optimist Isaac - 22/12/2012 12:58:36 AM 834 Views
I have seen nothing on turning a semi-auto BAR into a fully automatic one. Joel - 22/12/2012 01:11:12 AM 795 Views
What's a BAR? In any event, link a diagram and I'll let you know Isaac - 22/12/2012 01:26:31 AM 792 Views
Confusingly, there are two: The BAR you and I think of, and the "Browning BAR," a current semi-auto Joel - 22/12/2012 01:07:30 PM 909 Views
Department of Redundancy Department gets to name a lot of stuff, like "Milky Way Galaxy" Isaac - 22/12/2012 05:01:45 PM 1068 Views
It only bothers me when people who know better speak of "the Glieseian solar system." Joel - 26/12/2012 05:33:34 PM 951 Views
Both terms are pretty stuck now Isaac - 26/12/2012 10:48:38 PM 1017 Views
You realize that encourages rather than discourages my opposition to the usage, right? Joel - 27/12/2012 01:23:15 AM 794 Views
Well I can't say it surprises Isaac - 27/12/2012 04:29:06 AM 733 Views
No one expects the Online Inquisition! Joel - 27/12/2012 05:20:44 PM 744 Views
I've enjoyed most reboots Isaac - 28/12/2012 01:06:05 AM 688 Views
Yes the media is using terms incorrectly but the point still stands. Roland00 - 22/12/2012 03:02:18 AM 795 Views
Re: Yes the media is using terms incorrectly but the point still stands. MrFarstrider - 22/12/2012 04:12:30 AM 853 Views
Yes people can always still kill each other, humans are very ingenuitive Roland00 - 22/12/2012 04:42:04 AM 824 Views
I took a driving exam when I was 16, and have never been tested since, nor will I ever be. HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:17:05 PM 969 Views
Never is a long time; just renewing a license requires retaking the eye exam most places. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:16:54 PM 889 Views
Rather hard to do an eye exam online or through the mail. HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:08:06 PM 971 Views
Yes, it is, which is why I have always had to go by DPS for a new license. Joel - 26/12/2012 03:50:04 PM 799 Views
Tennessee and Florida pass them out like candy. For several years TN offered a no ID license HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 08:02:39 PM 807 Views
I still find it odd they require no eye test, that either allows the blind drivers licenses. Joel - 26/12/2012 08:58:57 PM 853 Views
Oh yeah, we have wandered off course *shrug* HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 03:55:55 PM 957 Views
Voter registration while getting a drivers license is distinct from the ease of licensing. Joel - 28/12/2012 03:35:34 PM 931 Views
Re: Voter registration while getting a drivers license is distinct from the ease of licensing. HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:14:32 PM 726 Views
If you can prove someone voted illegally, call the ACLU and claim your $1000. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:18:38 PM 882 Views
puhleeze.... election fraud is a fact. Pick a state, ANY state, ANY election... HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 02:41:40 PM 840 Views
umm... ironclad - 22/12/2012 12:41:31 PM 767 Views
Clip size is meaningless, semi-autos and even revolvers can be reloaded VERY quickly. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:20:59 PM 524 Views
1997 North Hollywood Shootout MrFarstrider - 22/12/2012 04:07:39 AM 931 Views
typical NRA bullshit response moondog - 22/12/2012 04:53:40 AM 871 Views
typical Moondog bullshit response HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:06:12 PM 879 Views
of course! there is no connection between having a gun and shooting someone. got it moondog - 23/12/2012 02:33:18 PM 763 Views
There is no corelation between decidng to kill someone and what tool you use. HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:11:08 PM 825 Views
By that logic no one needs a gun for self-defense; a coffee mug is perfectly adequate. Joel - 26/12/2012 09:06:51 PM 875 Views
I can kill you with my coffee mug... RESPECT THE MUG but I wouldn't, I might spill the coffee. HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:08:52 PM 736 Views
So you are saying you do not need a gun then? I will keep mine anyway, thanks. Joel - 28/12/2012 04:19:03 PM 824 Views
You covered a bunch of different things, and completely misrepresentted what I wrote HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:28:24 PM 865 Views
Home made explosives are pretty much always illegal; I did not want to overlook legal ones. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:44:19 PM 1058 Views
Re: Home made explosives are pretty much always illegal; I did not want to overlook legal ones. HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 03:31:01 PM 808 Views
Laws against murder failed to prevent that, too; clearly they are ineffective and should be repealed Joel - 22/12/2012 06:02:24 AM 985 Views
Such laws were never intended for prevention, they define actions that will be punished. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 12:57:57 PM 560 Views
So do laws against getting a gun without screening, training and certification. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:01:32 PM 806 Views
Then CHANGE the Constitution, don't ignore it. *NM* HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:12:11 PM 495 Views
I am not suggesting either changing or ignoring the Constitution. Joel - 26/12/2012 04:01:02 PM 914 Views
Yes you are. HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 08:06:01 PM 715 Views
Learn logic, and stop needlessly trying to teach me grammar. Joel - 26/12/2012 08:55:25 PM 877 Views
Lear to read, and I won't have to HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:28:59 PM 940 Views
Ironically, you misspelled "learn." Joel - 28/12/2012 05:15:17 PM 1172 Views
I know, I thought about going back and fixing the typo, but thought it was funny so I left it. *NM* HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:34:06 PM 521 Views
I agree it is funny, but probably for different reasons. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:19:44 PM 766 Views
2 commas or 4 makes no difference one is a 12D the other is a sentance. HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:55:31 PM 808 Views
It makes a huge difference when (incorrectly) claiming to know the text. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:31:51 PM 1122 Views
and by REGULATED, the authors meeant "able to use it effectively" HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 03:47:57 PM 876 Views
You are wrong. snoopcester - 22/12/2012 12:14:40 PM 890 Views
That explains much; I read somewhere Brits are averse to it. Joel - 22/12/2012 01:17:15 PM 812 Views
We're also averse to being wrong. snoopcester - 22/12/2012 02:53:49 PM 891 Views
So you say... Joel - 22/12/2012 03:32:16 PM 812 Views
guns r stpid *NM* Kuke - 23/12/2012 12:39:30 AM 581 Views
What bemuses me about this thing with Adam Lanza, is that his mother had 5 registered guns Helene - 23/12/2012 07:10:26 AM 908 Views
She also had many knives, and blunt objecs around the house. Tools are only as good as the user HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:10:58 PM 900 Views
So clearly she wasn't prepared enough... btw, do we know she was sleeping? Helene - 27/12/2012 10:52:03 AM 838 Views
That she 1) was in bed, 2) had guns for self-defense and 3) was shot 4 times strongly suggests sleep Joel - 28/12/2012 11:49:20 PM 912 Views
How doesn't it prove that owning guns doesn't make you safer Helene - 29/12/2012 06:54:34 AM 822 Views
She was asleep with him in the house. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:24:47 PM 881 Views
LOOK, look, there is another one... HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:13:45 PM 821 Views
I find the absolutist ant/pro-gun positions equally dangerous and absurd. Joel - 26/12/2012 04:20:37 PM 796 Views
So we should just *kinda* ignore the Constitution *this* time... But what about NEXT time... HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 08:08:12 PM 783 Views
No, we should enact gun regulation the Constitution explicitly empowers. Joel - 26/12/2012 09:02:12 PM 797 Views
Which would be... NONE. *NM* HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:31:53 PM 499 Views
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state...." Joel - 28/12/2012 05:14:49 PM 790 Views
*see previous grammar lesson* *NM* HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:31:43 PM 484 Views
The instant it becomes relevant, I shall. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:45:01 PM 984 Views
Your point being? Helene - 27/12/2012 10:47:29 AM 780 Views
I am certain it would have been better, though not good, if she had been awake and shot him. Joel - 27/12/2012 02:16:13 PM 900 Views
So the situation of Nancy and Adam shooting at each other Helene - 28/12/2012 07:44:12 AM 907 Views
No, I believe they were both mentally incompetent to have guns; that does not mean EVERYONE is. Joel - 28/12/2012 02:19:51 PM 823 Views
How do you know Nancy Lanza was mentally incompetent? Helene - 29/12/2012 07:06:40 AM 828 Views
As a father, I would rather kill my own child than have him kill 26 other people. HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:35:02 PM 736 Views
And as a father, you are somehow clairvoyant? Helene - 28/12/2012 07:43:08 AM 793 Views
Nice flippant unthinking reply, you and moondog should get together. *NM* HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 04:55:14 PM 541 Views
How is my reply flippant? Your statement was unthinking, not mine. Helene - 29/12/2012 06:59:04 AM 832 Views
YOU asked if it would have been better for her to kill her own child instead, I answered. HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 03:52:02 PM 844 Views
I asked if a shoot out between mother and son had been better, not whether she should have killed Helene - 29/12/2012 08:54:09 PM 775 Views
You make no sense. HyogaRott - 31/12/2012 06:07:50 PM 849 Views
I make no sense to you because you probably just don't understand my point. Helene - 01/01/2013 08:09:11 AM 927 Views
Maybe the heat death of the univers occurs before you finally have a cohearant thought HyogaRott - 01/01/2013 07:34:31 PM 840 Views
You do realize that resorting to personal attacks reveal an inability to make sound arguments? *NM* Helene - 02/01/2013 06:01:33 PM 594 Views
That is not an ad hominem attack, and your prior post was not very logically coherent Isaac - 02/01/2013 08:59:16 PM 922 Views
Instead of actually showing why my arguments would be incoherent or why I'm immature, he just said Helene - 05/01/2013 02:02:23 AM 921 Views
He did not Isaac - 05/01/2013 01:39:40 PM 1228 Views
Facts are irrelevant when FUD is the order of the day. Macharius - 24/12/2012 04:34:18 PM 787 Views
It irritates me too. *NM* Avendesora - 01/01/2013 01:55:05 PM 503 Views
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