Community Messageboard: Inexplicably, Ft. Hood was a gun free zone (guess no one told the shooter.) by Joel

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Inexplicably, Ft. Hood was a gun free zone (guess no one told the shooter.) Joel Send a noteboard - 26/12/2012 06:12:42 PM

On April 20, however, Deputy Gardner and campus supervisor Andy Marton, an unarmed school security officer employed by the school district, were eating lunch in Gardner’s patrol car. They were monitoring students in the “Smokers’ Pit,” a spot just to the northwest of campus in Clement Park where the students congregated to smoke cigarettes.

So the problem was he as looking after the wrong group of students - perhaps a problem that could occur when guarding any school that is sizeable, in particular if it is spread over a large area?

That was my impression, yes, particularly after he said armed cops at schools would prevent more Columbines, but only if assigned that duty exclusively.

did i make you a copy of the "sub pop 200" album? if not, do you remember that song from terry lee hale which has the verse that goes:

"Little men carry guns and walk so big.
They say they're not afraid, just prepared.
But you know they want to use it, they want to drop the heat
They want to play the hero and talk a life that's cheap
Hanging onto nothing, more than they can keep
Do you think that they would dare less? Think they'd lose their sleep?
No, they never do...."

point being, it's incredibly easy in hindsight to say "oh yeah, that would've totally worked if only...." i'm going to go back to the fort hood shooting here and say: if the largest US military base in the world cannot contain a single crazy gunman, what hope does a single guard have at a public school, especially when he is going to be required to do more than just look for gunmen shooting at kids?

As soon as two civilian cops showed up with handguns, the Ft. Hood shooter wounded one of them with several shots before the other one shot him five times and cuffed him. Fort Hood is not an argument more guns cannot prevent gun violence, but that prohibiting them even to a military bases screened and trained soldiers makes even military bases easy prey for a single crazed gunman. It is also an argument to deny guns to mentally ill people behaving violently.

Having people trained with guns does no good if those people are 1) prohibited from having guns or 2) sent elsewhere before the shooting starts. It is not unreasonable to say, "that totally would have worked IF ANYONE HAD BOTHERED TRYING IT." Tell ya what: Since we are currently having mass shootings at the rate of about one every two months, why not try it and SEE if it works? What is the worst that could happen?

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the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics moondog - 22/12/2012 04:40:26 PM 1208 Views

I do not see why calling for armed cops at schools is an unreasonable response. Joel - 22/12/2012 04:53:06 PM 727 Views

I can think of two reasons off the top of my head beetnemesis - 22/12/2012 05:38:19 PM 760 Views

OK... Joel - 22/12/2012 06:58:42 PM 724 Views

If the schools that the children of our elected representatives attend are gaurded, so should mine. HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:00:35 PM 552 Views

If someone is shooting at you having a gun to shoot back seems like a good idea random thoughts - 26/12/2012 06:10:07 PM 574 Views

The effectiveness issue aside TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 06:13:30 PM 624 Views

Re: The effectiveness issue aside Joel - 22/12/2012 06:59:36 PM 713 Views

If you think it would solve the debate then probably TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 07:09:42 PM 671 Views

Nothing will ever truly end the debate, but we can greatly reduce or end its justification. Joel - 22/12/2012 08:03:39 PM 633 Views

If it's shown to work TheCrownless - 23/12/2012 12:25:38 AM 720 Views

Of the many school shootings in recent years, I am aware of none where armed cops were present. Joel - 23/12/2012 12:47:32 AM 619 Views

columbine had two armed guards on the day of the shooting. they were both immediately fired upon... moondog - 23/12/2012 12:49:30 AM 608 Views

I have never seen any mention of them among the injured or dead (or at all.) Joel - 23/12/2012 01:09:38 AM 755 Views

you should try harder moondog - 23/12/2012 01:15:34 AM 774 Views

"a motorcycle patrolman who was near the school writing a speeding ticket" is not stationed there. Joel - 23/12/2012 01:34:50 AM 705 Views

he still didn't stop the shooting, whether he was there before or after it started moondog - 23/12/2012 01:49:24 AM 717 Views

No kidding; how could he stop the shooting before it started if he was not there? Joel - 23/12/2012 02:16:59 AM 573 Views

A fuller account of Gardner snoopcester - 23/12/2012 10:27:24 AM 818 Views

Nice link. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:27:30 PM 607 Views

Re: Nice link. moondog - 23/12/2012 03:15:24 PM 587 Views

Inexplicably, Ft. Hood was a gun free zone (guess no one told the shooter.) Joel - 26/12/2012 06:12:42 PM 588 Views

Re: Nice link. snoopcester - 23/12/2012 04:21:27 PM 596 Views

Gardner:If you’re going to put a police officer in a school, make sure his focus stays on the school Joel - 26/12/2012 06:40:41 PM 616 Views

The children are what matter, not the school. Surely this isn't something you disagree on? snoopcester - 29/12/2012 02:15:12 PM 643 Views

As usual Moondog, you are missing a BUNCH of facts on this one (links inside) HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 07:51:29 PM 716 Views

at last count, over 99,000 schools in the US moondog - 23/12/2012 12:45:30 AM 665 Views

What is public safety worth to you? Joel - 23/12/2012 12:54:04 AM 585 Views

it's not entirely a matter of cost, although that factors into it. moondog - 23/12/2012 01:01:50 AM 523 Views

There are many cases where armed cops ended mass shootings. Joel - 23/12/2012 01:28:25 AM 529 Views

there are none where an armed guard placed there *before* the shooting had any effect moondog - 23/12/2012 01:36:42 AM 658 Views

Kind of a Catch-22; if they PREVENT shootings, shootings can only occur in their absence. Joel - 23/12/2012 01:52:03 AM 720 Views

ok, here is my last word on the subject moondog - 23/12/2012 02:06:49 AM 643 Views

9 people injured vs. 20 people dead. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:34:00 AM 574 Views

it is still "more guns makes us safer" which has yet to prevent a single massacre in this country moondog - 23/12/2012 02:41:56 PM 695 Views

Peter Odighizuwa comes to mind, that's also horrible logic Isaac - 23/12/2012 08:27:46 PM 582 Views

[citation needed] moondog - 25/12/2012 04:54:14 PM 581 Views

Fair enough Isaac - 25/12/2012 09:06:43 PM 937 Views

Care to prove that negative? The burden to do so is on you as the person who made the assertion. Joel - 26/12/2012 06:47:07 PM 547 Views

It doesn't have to be a full time gaurd standing looking dangerous. random thoughts - 26/12/2012 06:12:14 PM 677 Views

Re: the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics Novo - 22/12/2012 06:36:32 PM 754 Views

I believe it is fairly common in junior and high schools today, but not elementary schools. Joel - 22/12/2012 07:12:32 PM 592 Views

This entire post is completely irrelevant. Tom - 22/12/2012 07:27:45 PM 704 Views

Those who want univeral prohibition/access are equally fringe minorities. Joel - 22/12/2012 08:18:00 PM 648 Views

there is no Left or Right on this issue, there is only Sane and Insane moondog - 23/12/2012 12:59:08 AM 681 Views

also: it's insulting to tell parents their kids would be alive if only more guns were around moondog - 23/12/2012 01:30:53 AM 625 Views

People die from all sort of causes Dark Knight - 22/12/2012 07:27:53 PM 642 Views

Cars require training, certification and licensing, too; why should guns not? Joel - 22/12/2012 08:25:43 PM 778 Views

Do bombs require certification? Dark Knight - 22/12/2012 09:21:25 PM 870 Views

No, they are pretty much illegal for the general public under all conditions. Joel - 22/12/2012 09:35:35 PM 544 Views

i say this with all due respect -- eat a bag of dicks moondog - 23/12/2012 01:04:08 AM 662 Views

That was pretty damn respectful under the circumstances. Stephen - 23/12/2012 01:10:04 AM 625 Views

The lack of intellect displayed here is to be expected Dark Knight - 23/12/2012 04:01:32 AM 636 Views

so according to you we should just make life illegal since everyone is going to die from something.. moondog - 23/12/2012 07:25:05 AM 559 Views

Obviously you didn't put pay attention Dark Knight - 23/12/2012 01:40:17 PM 588 Views

no, you said "fuck it because people die anyway". there is a big difference moondog - 23/12/2012 02:46:46 PM 579 Views

As usual, you are wrong on so many fronts... HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 10:39:04 PM 896 Views

Dicks and stones Dark Knight - 23/12/2012 03:54:25 AM 771 Views

FYI - I gave moondog a 30-day time-out via the ignore function. Anonymous2000 - 23/12/2012 05:48:13 AM 515 Views

FYI -- you didn't post to this board for 30+ days moondog - 23/12/2012 07:21:44 AM 519 Views

cars and guns kill roughly the same number of people every year -- around 30,000 give or take moondog - 23/12/2012 01:02:44 AM 610 Views

But over half of gun deaths are suicide.....so cars are much more dangerous to society. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 23/12/2012 05:35:45 AM 278 Views

Every year is iffy there, it dropped off the last two, was 40k-50k plus for cars since 1962 Isaac - 23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM 579 Views

except that cars are legislated to be safer every year, guns aren't. moondog - 23/12/2012 03:01:36 PM 604 Views

Guns are for killing, cars are for transport, cars aren't any safer now against use for homicide Isaac - 23/12/2012 08:22:13 PM 565 Views

but if we are trying to minimize the number of deaths, then more MUST be done for gun laws moondog - 24/12/2012 03:33:31 AM 544 Views

More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation Isaac - 24/12/2012 04:27:04 AM 660 Views

Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation moondog - 25/12/2012 04:49:54 PM 624 Views

Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation Isaac - 25/12/2012 08:41:53 PM 593 Views

Double *NM* Isaac - 23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM 332 Views

Hat trick, never got that before *NM* Isaac - 23/12/2012 11:56:08 AM 292 Views

Here is some interesting data.....knives are as dangerous as "non-handguns" Anonymous2000 - 23/12/2012 05:45:08 AM 676 Views

I hope you don't mind me taking this opportunity to plug my new book, "How to Cook with Guns" *NM* Burr - 23/12/2012 03:04:06 PM 344 Views

there was a school mass stabbing in china the same day as sandy hook moondog - 23/12/2012 03:18:00 PM 609 Views

I am equally happy that the criminal was incompetant, but that does not diminish their lethality HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 10:45:33 PM 666 Views

I'm not sure it's about guns. Orange - 23/12/2012 06:08:50 PM 594 Views

IMO it is about the media attention focuised on the perpetrator. Their name becomes history. *NM* HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 10:47:15 PM 328 Views

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<quote id="269464">
<quote id="269322"><quote id="269313"><quote id="269295"><quote>On April 20, however, Deputy Gardner and campus supervisor Andy Marton, an unarmed school security officer employed by the school district, were eating lunch in Gardner’s  patrol car.  <b>They were monitoring students in the “Smokers’ Pit,”</b> a spot just to the northwest of campus in Clement Park where the students congregated to smoke cigarettes. </quote>
So the problem was he as looking after the wrong group of students - perhaps a problem that could occur when guarding any school that is sizeable, in particular if it is spread over a large area?
</quote>
That was my impression, yes, particularly after he said armed cops at schools would prevent more Columbines, but only if assigned that duty exclusively.</quote>

did i make you a copy of the "sub pop 200" album?  if not, do you remember that song from terry lee hale which has the verse that goes:

"Little men carry guns and walk so big.
They say they're not afraid, just prepared.
But you know they want to use it, they want to drop the heat
They want to play the hero and talk a life that's cheap
Hanging onto nothing, more than they can keep
Do you think that they would dare less? Think they'd lose their sleep?
No, they never do...."

point being, it's incredibly easy in hindsight to say "oh yeah, that would've totally worked if only...."  i'm going to go back to the fort hood shooting here and say:  if the largest US military base in the world cannot contain a single crazy gunman, what hope does a single guard have at a public school, especially when he is going to be required to do more than just look for gunmen shooting at kids?</quote>
As soon as two civilian cops showed up with handguns, the Ft. Hood shooter wounded one of them with several shots before the other one shot him five times and cuffed him.  Fort Hood is not an argument more guns cannot prevent gun violence, but that prohibiting them even to a military bases screened and trained soldiers makes even military bases easy prey for a single crazed gunman.  It is also an argument to deny guns to mentally ill people behaving violently.

Having people trained with guns does no good if those people are 1) prohibited from having guns or 2) sent elsewhere before the shooting starts.  It is not unreasonable to say, "that totally would have worked IF ANYONE HAD BOTHERED TRYING IT."  Tell ya what:  Since we are currently having mass shootings at the rate of about one every two months, why not try it and SEE if it works?  What is the worst that could happen? 
</quote>

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