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but if we are trying to minimize the number of deaths, then more MUST be done for gun laws moondog Send a noteboard - 24/12/2012 03:33:31 AM
Vehicle deaths are mostly accidental, a gun is designed to kill things, especially people. You can kill someone with a car quite easily, just a pain for premeditated murder of an individual. No law or safety feature on a car has made them one bit safer in regards to specifically trying to kill someone with one.


car accidents used to kill a lot more people, as your research found. then they required people to wear seat belts at all times and the deaths were limited to specific types of accidents. then they required air bags in cars and certain other specific types of accidents began to be survivable. then they required that air bags not kill people after deployment, and people stopped suffocating after accidents. now we have kid car seats, side curtain air bags and a host of other features that are standard now instead of only found on volvo or mercedes.

the point is, we have very clear examples of laws which prevent massacres (australia), and very clear examples of laws which severely minimize massacre deaths (canada). it's just a matter of our legislators having the backbone to pass something that fits within the 2nd amendment framework that does not infringe on the right to own, but is provably effective at limiting the damage of the next rampage. i understand that some versions of the AR-15 can not easily be modified to accept the larger ammo clip. i don't see why similar measures can't be enacted here, except that the NRA thinks more guns with bigger ammo clips are somehow necessary so they fight against any and all sensible restrictions

Concealed isn't really a big factor in these spree killings, from a pragmatic perspective a concealed weapon allows someone to carry a gun without meeting instant fear or dislike form a large chunk of the population, gives them a tactical edge if attacked, and represents a global deterrence similar to how LoJack does. In any event, you know my opinion, if self-defense isn't grounds to buy a gun nothing is. As to licensing and registration, frankly I don't think any of the recent spree killings would have been effected. Training is a different story, the government has a clearly defined interest in seeing minimal accidental deaths, low crime, and ensuring a pool of persons able to defend the country. Therefore it clearly has the right to offer gun training at tax payer expense. Not mandatory training, though the legal right to draft people implies yes, but certainly we could begin training kids as the boy scouts do. I'm sure most of them would enjoy it and national defense readiness is sufficient grounds for federal subsidy to schools or groups like the BSA to offer it as an alternative gym/sports/civics class. No reason it has to stop at 18, I won't argue people have a duty to know how to shoot (I do, incidentally) but the gov't has a clear national defense reason to encourage large numbers of well-trained people and guns and ammo aren't budget busters, especially if its only voluntary. We could give out merit badges, make people more likely to attend.

That seems a good idea to me, gets that training in there, no need for mandatory when voluntary would achieve near identical results. Besides, even if you prefer mandatory the voluntary option makes a good interregnum.



there are quite a few legitimate reasons to own a gun that "self defense" is not really a reasonable expectation. you can easily defend yourself and/or your property with a sword, a baseball bat, a tire iron, a 2x4, the list goes on and on. i used to carry an 18" long 1/2" ratchet extension with a 3/4" deep socket in my truck and i never had to use it once. if guns are heavily regulated and gun owners can be liable for their guns being used in a crime, there is less incentive to have a gun for protection. however, you could be on a licensed competitive pistol team, you could be an actual hunter, you could be in a lot of things for which it makes sense to own a gun without having to justify its existence with a paranoid fantasy that only a gun can protect you and yours.

that being said, if everyone who owned a gun was required by whatever justification necessary to take gun safety and training courses, i am pretty sure a lot of the problems surrounding having so many guns in circulation could be minimized. at a bare minimum, it should be relatively difficult to get a gun, and it should be as heavily regulated as the auto industry if not more so.
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the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics - 22/12/2012 04:40:26 PM 1207 Views
I do not see why calling for armed cops at schools is an unreasonable response. - 22/12/2012 04:53:06 PM 726 Views
I can think of two reasons off the top of my head - 22/12/2012 05:38:19 PM 759 Views
OK... - 22/12/2012 06:58:42 PM 723 Views
If someone is shooting at you having a gun to shoot back seems like a good idea - 26/12/2012 06:10:07 PM 574 Views
The effectiveness issue aside - 22/12/2012 06:13:30 PM 623 Views
Re: The effectiveness issue aside - 22/12/2012 06:59:36 PM 713 Views
If you think it would solve the debate then probably - 22/12/2012 07:09:42 PM 670 Views
Nothing will ever truly end the debate, but we can greatly reduce or end its justification. - 22/12/2012 08:03:39 PM 633 Views
If it's shown to work - 23/12/2012 12:25:38 AM 719 Views
columbine had two armed guards on the day of the shooting. they were both immediately fired upon... - 23/12/2012 12:49:30 AM 607 Views
I have never seen any mention of them among the injured or dead (or at all.) - 23/12/2012 01:09:38 AM 754 Views
A fuller account of Gardner - 23/12/2012 10:27:24 AM 817 Views
Nice link. - 23/12/2012 02:27:30 PM 607 Views
Re: Nice link. - 23/12/2012 03:15:24 PM 586 Views
at last count, over 99,000 schools in the US - 23/12/2012 12:45:30 AM 665 Views
What is public safety worth to you? - 23/12/2012 12:54:04 AM 585 Views
it's not entirely a matter of cost, although that factors into it. - 23/12/2012 01:01:50 AM 522 Views
There are many cases where armed cops ended mass shootings. - 23/12/2012 01:28:25 AM 528 Views
there are none where an armed guard placed there *before* the shooting had any effect - 23/12/2012 01:36:42 AM 658 Views
Kind of a Catch-22; if they PREVENT shootings, shootings can only occur in their absence. - 23/12/2012 01:52:03 AM 720 Views
ok, here is my last word on the subject - 23/12/2012 02:06:49 AM 643 Views
9 people injured vs. 20 people dead. - 23/12/2012 02:34:00 AM 573 Views
it is still "more guns makes us safer" which has yet to prevent a single massacre in this country - 23/12/2012 02:41:56 PM 695 Views
Peter Odighizuwa comes to mind, that's also horrible logic - 23/12/2012 08:27:46 PM 582 Views
[citation needed] - 25/12/2012 04:54:14 PM 580 Views
Fair enough - 25/12/2012 09:06:43 PM 937 Views
It doesn't have to be a full time gaurd standing looking dangerous. - 26/12/2012 06:12:14 PM 677 Views
People die from all sort of causes - 22/12/2012 07:27:53 PM 641 Views
Cars require training, certification and licensing, too; why should guns not? - 22/12/2012 08:25:43 PM 778 Views
Do bombs require certification? - 22/12/2012 09:21:25 PM 869 Views
i say this with all due respect -- eat a bag of dicks - 23/12/2012 01:04:08 AM 662 Views
That was pretty damn respectful under the circumstances. - 23/12/2012 01:10:04 AM 624 Views
The lack of intellect displayed here is to be expected - 23/12/2012 04:01:32 AM 635 Views
so according to you we should just make life illegal since everyone is going to die from something.. - 23/12/2012 07:25:05 AM 559 Views
Obviously you didn't put pay attention - 23/12/2012 01:40:17 PM 588 Views
no, you said "fuck it because people die anyway". there is a big difference - 23/12/2012 02:46:46 PM 578 Views
As usual, you are wrong on so many fronts... - 27/12/2012 10:39:04 PM 895 Views
Dicks and stones - 23/12/2012 03:54:25 AM 770 Views
FYI - I gave moondog a 30-day time-out via the ignore function. - 23/12/2012 05:48:13 AM 514 Views
FYI -- you didn't post to this board for 30+ days - 23/12/2012 07:21:44 AM 518 Views
cars and guns kill roughly the same number of people every year -- around 30,000 give or take - 23/12/2012 01:02:44 AM 609 Views
Every year is iffy there, it dropped off the last two, was 40k-50k plus for cars since 1962 - 23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM 579 Views
except that cars are legislated to be safer every year, guns aren't. - 23/12/2012 03:01:36 PM 603 Views
Guns are for killing, cars are for transport, cars aren't any safer now against use for homicide - 23/12/2012 08:22:13 PM 564 Views
but if we are trying to minimize the number of deaths, then more MUST be done for gun laws - 24/12/2012 03:33:31 AM 544 Views
Double *NM* - 23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM 331 Views
Hat trick, never got that before *NM* - 23/12/2012 11:56:08 AM 291 Views
I'm not sure it's about guns. - 23/12/2012 06:08:50 PM 594 Views

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