Kind of a Catch-22; if they PREVENT shootings, shootings can only occur in their absence.
Joel Send a noteboard - 23/12/2012 01:52:03 AM
All the way back to the UT Tower shootings. Typically, mass shooters get shot when armed cops arrive, either by the cops or by themselves. Armed cops routinely end all kinds of gun violence; that, after all, is why they have guns, and there is nothing non-sensical about that. A federal program (which is what I understood to be on the table) would not financially burden school districts, and even local programs would place the financial burden on the local law enforcement agencies guarding the schools, not the school districts. You think our old high school pays the cops who cruise the parking lot in squad cars at lunch?
You would rather fund training and certification, which the NRA says is ineffective and too expensive; they would rather fund police guarding schools, which you say is ineffective and too expensive. Those both sound less like rebuttals than excuses. I am truly sick and tired of the irrational fringes on both sides shouting each other down with strawmen and canards while the vast majority of America desperately seeks a rational effective policy amid those shrill hyperbolic distractions.
Lemme simplify this: The SOLE reason ANYONE listens to the gun lobbys alarmist hyperbolic claims about confiscation is because radical fringe gun control advocates make them credible. Likewise, the SOLE reason ANYONE listens to the other sides alarmist hyperbolic claims about all the people trying to turn their backyards into Ft. Dix is because radical fringe gun rights advocates make them credible. They are not rebutting each other, they are VALIDATING each other. And getting in the way of the vast majority who categorically disagrees with both as we try to draft effective reasonable national gun policy. Anyone who wants people to dismiss the pro/anti-gun lobby as delusional should stop making its fears so plausible to everyone else.
charles whitman was taken down after he had already killed, it was not a guard who happened to interfere with his attack but rather a concerted effort between two officers who had to sneak up on him to get a clean shot. i can find no instances of an armed guard stationed in a position to be the interceptor that has ever actually intercepted a shooter and prevented a massacre.
There were no armed police present when Whitman began shooting; once armed police reached him he was killed, and the massacre ended, almost immediately.
also, you yourself made the case that guns should be regulated similarly to vehicle ownership. how is what i am saying so different to what you said below that you feel the need to label it "hyperbolic" and "irrational fringe"?
Mainly in that you are treating that proposal and the NRAs as mutually exclusive, and that engaging them on the basis of their specious claim gun control=prohibition implicitly legitimizes it. I feel like most people opposing their quite reasonable proposal are doing so solely to have another fight with the NRA (which clearly wants that just as badly) and demonize it as dangerously radical. I mean, c'mon, man putting a cop or two at a school "militarizes" it? Are you going to sit there and tell me that is a MODERATE view? If all law enforcement is so dangerously untrustworthy, who do you suggest enforce gun control laws?
You are rising to the bait, man, getting played. LaPierre is putting out a very reasonable proposal in a very combative tone, and you are responding to the latter rather than the former. Categorically condemning a reasonable proposal just because it comes from the NRA does not impress many people as moderate.
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics
22/12/2012 04:40:26 PM
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I do not see why calling for armed cops at schools is an unreasonable response.
22/12/2012 04:53:06 PM
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I can think of two reasons off the top of my head
22/12/2012 05:38:19 PM
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If the schools that the children of our elected representatives attend are gaurded, so should mine.
26/12/2012 03:00:35 PM
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If someone is shooting at you having a gun to shoot back seems like a good idea
26/12/2012 06:10:07 PM
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The effectiveness issue aside
22/12/2012 06:13:30 PM
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Re: The effectiveness issue aside
22/12/2012 06:59:36 PM
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If you think it would solve the debate then probably
22/12/2012 07:09:42 PM
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Nothing will ever truly end the debate, but we can greatly reduce or end its justification.
22/12/2012 08:03:39 PM
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If it's shown to work
23/12/2012 12:25:38 AM
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Of the many school shootings in recent years, I am aware of none where armed cops were present.
23/12/2012 12:47:32 AM
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columbine had two armed guards on the day of the shooting. they were both immediately fired upon...
23/12/2012 12:49:30 AM
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I have never seen any mention of them among the injured or dead (or at all.)
23/12/2012 01:09:38 AM
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you should try harder
23/12/2012 01:15:34 AM
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"a motorcycle patrolman who was near the school writing a speeding ticket" is not stationed there.
23/12/2012 01:34:50 AM
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he still didn't stop the shooting, whether he was there before or after it started
23/12/2012 01:49:24 AM
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No kidding; how could he stop the shooting before it started if he was not there?
23/12/2012 02:16:59 AM
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A fuller account of Gardner
23/12/2012 10:27:24 AM
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Nice link.
23/12/2012 02:27:30 PM
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Re: Nice link.
23/12/2012 03:15:24 PM
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Inexplicably, Ft. Hood was a gun free zone (guess no one told the shooter.)
26/12/2012 06:12:42 PM
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Re: Nice link.
23/12/2012 04:21:27 PM
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Gardner:If you’re going to put a police officer in a school, make sure his focus stays on the school
26/12/2012 06:40:41 PM
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The children are what matter, not the school. Surely this isn't something you disagree on?
29/12/2012 02:15:12 PM
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As usual Moondog, you are missing a BUNCH of facts on this one (links inside)
26/12/2012 07:51:29 PM
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at last count, over 99,000 schools in the US
23/12/2012 12:45:30 AM
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What is public safety worth to you?
23/12/2012 12:54:04 AM
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it's not entirely a matter of cost, although that factors into it.
23/12/2012 01:01:50 AM
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There are many cases where armed cops ended mass shootings.
23/12/2012 01:28:25 AM
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there are none where an armed guard placed there *before* the shooting had any effect
23/12/2012 01:36:42 AM
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Kind of a Catch-22; if they PREVENT shootings, shootings can only occur in their absence.
23/12/2012 01:52:03 AM
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ok, here is my last word on the subject
23/12/2012 02:06:49 AM
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9 people injured vs. 20 people dead.
23/12/2012 02:34:00 AM
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it is still "more guns makes us safer" which has yet to prevent a single massacre in this country
23/12/2012 02:41:56 PM
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Care to prove that negative? The burden to do so is on you as the person who made the assertion.
26/12/2012 06:47:07 PM
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It doesn't have to be a full time gaurd standing looking dangerous.
26/12/2012 06:12:14 PM
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Re: the NRA shows it is an asylum overrun by lunatics
22/12/2012 06:36:32 PM
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I believe it is fairly common in junior and high schools today, but not elementary schools.
22/12/2012 07:12:32 PM
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This entire post is completely irrelevant.
22/12/2012 07:27:45 PM
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Those who want univeral prohibition/access are equally fringe minorities.
22/12/2012 08:18:00 PM
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there is no Left or Right on this issue, there is only Sane and Insane
23/12/2012 12:59:08 AM
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also: it's insulting to tell parents their kids would be alive if only more guns were around
23/12/2012 01:30:53 AM
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People die from all sort of causes
22/12/2012 07:27:53 PM
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Cars require training, certification and licensing, too; why should guns not?
22/12/2012 08:25:43 PM
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Do bombs require certification?
22/12/2012 09:21:25 PM
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No, they are pretty much illegal for the general public under all conditions.
22/12/2012 09:35:35 PM
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i say this with all due respect -- eat a bag of dicks
23/12/2012 01:04:08 AM
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That was pretty damn respectful under the circumstances.
23/12/2012 01:10:04 AM
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The lack of intellect displayed here is to be expected
23/12/2012 04:01:32 AM
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so according to you we should just make life illegal since everyone is going to die from something..
23/12/2012 07:25:05 AM
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Obviously you didn't put pay attention
23/12/2012 01:40:17 PM
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no, you said "fuck it because people die anyway". there is a big difference
23/12/2012 02:46:46 PM
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Dicks and stones
23/12/2012 03:54:25 AM
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cars and guns kill roughly the same number of people every year -- around 30,000 give or take
23/12/2012 01:02:44 AM
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But over half of gun deaths are suicide.....so cars are much more dangerous to society. *NM*
23/12/2012 05:35:45 AM
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Every year is iffy there, it dropped off the last two, was 40k-50k plus for cars since 1962
23/12/2012 11:55:50 AM
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except that cars are legislated to be safer every year, guns aren't.
23/12/2012 03:01:36 PM
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Guns are for killing, cars are for transport, cars aren't any safer now against use for homicide
23/12/2012 08:22:13 PM
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but if we are trying to minimize the number of deaths, then more MUST be done for gun laws
24/12/2012 03:33:31 AM
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More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
24/12/2012 04:27:04 AM
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Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
25/12/2012 04:49:54 PM
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Re: More must be done to minimize, not necessarily with greater regulation
25/12/2012 08:41:53 PM
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Here is some interesting data.....knives are as dangerous as "non-handguns"
23/12/2012 05:45:08 AM
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I hope you don't mind me taking this opportunity to plug my new book, "How to Cook with Guns" *NM*
23/12/2012 03:04:06 PM
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there was a school mass stabbing in china the same day as sandy hook
23/12/2012 03:18:00 PM
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I am equally happy that the criminal was incompetant, but that does not diminish their lethality
27/12/2012 10:45:33 PM
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I'm not sure it's about guns.
23/12/2012 06:08:50 PM
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IMO it is about the media attention focuised on the perpetrator. Their name becomes history. *NM*
27/12/2012 10:47:15 PM
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