Laws against murder failed to prevent that, too; clearly they are ineffective and should be repealed
Joel Send a noteboard - 22/12/2012 06:02:24 AM
I can't believe pro-gun folks haven't mentioned this. In 1997, during the height of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 in the strictest state in the Union, California, two men had illegally purchased automatic weapons, with illegal extremely high capacity drum magazines with armor piercing bullet and shot up half of the LA police force. Gun control couldn't get more strict than the environment these two procured their weapons in. Yet the bad guys still managed to do bad guy things.
Additionally, the DC snipers used a regular hunting rifle to kill a ton of innocent people and even children.
The only effect that gun control is going to have is to limit the number of guns good guys can get legally. If people expect their target audience of "bad guys" to be effected, they are living a pipe dream. History proves that bad guys will still find a way to commit mass murders.
Additionally, the DC snipers used a regular hunting rifle to kill a ton of innocent people and even children.
The only effect that gun control is going to have is to limit the number of guns good guys can get legally. If people expect their target audience of "bad guys" to be effected, they are living a pipe dream. History proves that bad guys will still find a way to commit mass murders.
Laws against robbery did not stop them either. Hell, EVERY law has been broken at one time or another; since breaking the law proves it restricts freedom without preventing crime, we should remove them all. *nods*
The point is not preventing all crime, but a far more complex multilevel one. First, it REDUCES the applicable crimes impairing the means and opportunity to commit them, thereby diminishing motive. Criminalizing the means for those with criminal history/proclivities allows their arrested the moment they are caught with a gun even if they have not yet committed OTHER (violent) crimes with it. Registration helps cops identify stolen guns before they are used in crimes. Even when those stopgaps fail to prevent gun violence, the ability to stack a half dozen charges on the perpetrator helps keep them in prison for an extended period even if they "only" kill one or two people instead of dozens. Mass shootings get the headlines, but liquor store robberies kill far more people.
In the case of mental health screening, gun control aids diagnosis, and therefore treatement, of dangerous mental illness, again before anyone is harmed. Not everyone who shoots people is a "bad guy" who will always get a gun and thus needs to a citizen-hero to shoot them. Many are just very mentally unstable people who do not need to be shot or possess anything more lethal than safety scissors, but do need medical supervision.
Of course, some aspects of gun control are not aimed at crime in ANY way. Mandatory training and certification is not designed to prevent crime, but accidents and misuse, which are common and dangerous with untrained gun users. When gun control advocates lament children finding their parents gun and injuring or killing themselves or others, gun rights advocates angrily and rightly respond that the parents should not have made the gun so easily accessible—it sure would be nice if someone mentioned that to the parents BEFORE their children grabs their gun. Now, you might say no one should need to be told something like that, but then we are back to "mandatory screening, training and certification for gun ownership."
There is FAR more to this than "laws intrude on personal freedom without preventing crime, therefore they are ineffective infringements we should repeal."
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 22/12/2012 at 06:14:27 AM
When guns are a big national issue, how do reporters & pundits not know facts about them?
- 21/12/2012 05:33:14 PM
1538 Views
You don't hunt by walking into a classroom and shooting 20 deer
- 21/12/2012 05:56:16 PM
992 Views
You're actually not right on that one
- 21/12/2012 07:49:53 PM
920 Views
That wasn't the point I was making
- 21/12/2012 09:49:40 PM
865 Views
You should probably clarify it then
- 21/12/2012 10:47:26 PM
1022 Views
His post was perfectly clear. Yours seemed like a response to an entirely different post.
- 21/12/2012 10:53:39 PM
1177 Views
Explain that remark, it is not obvious to me *NM*
- 21/12/2012 11:00:10 PM
529 Views
I think
- 21/12/2012 11:13:34 PM
852 Views
Thats' easy, there is simply no such thing as a 'hunting rifle'
- 21/12/2012 11:17:41 PM
860 Views
I'd say the expert gunsmith
- 21/12/2012 11:28:02 PM
906 Views
I'm also an expert at math and physics, should I be more forgiving about those too?
- 22/12/2012 12:38:45 AM
848 Views
Re: I'm also an expert at math and physics, should I be more forgiving about those too?
- 22/12/2012 01:00:18 AM
876 Views
Well I appreciate your calling it pedantic when you aren't an expert, thanks for correcting me
- 22/12/2012 01:15:08 AM
934 Views
Re: Well I appreciate your calling it pedantic when you aren't an expert, thanks for correcting me
- 22/12/2012 09:35:38 AM
1067 Views
I thought I was being perfectly clear.
- 21/12/2012 10:57:35 PM
871 Views
A bit of an aside, but I was reading that the gun used in the attack can be bought in Canada too.
- 21/12/2012 06:14:01 PM
875 Views
you're largely correct, which is why we need stronger laws on ownership not guns per se
- 21/12/2012 09:39:14 PM
831 Views
I can't think of a better reason than self defense
- 21/12/2012 10:33:26 PM
890 Views
He is right about Australia
- 21/12/2012 10:46:27 PM
868 Views
No kidding 
- 21/12/2012 10:59:28 PM
855 Views
- 21/12/2012 10:59:28 PM
855 Views
If you knew all that
- 21/12/2012 11:02:38 PM
880 Views
Because I used wiki of course
- 21/12/2012 11:21:25 PM
928 Views
He said ""self defense" is not a valid excuse to own a lethal weapon"
- 21/12/2012 11:34:59 PM
801 Views
Yes,which is un-cited, but I did prove it's a valid excuse to use one, so...
- 22/12/2012 12:36:19 AM
929 Views
The difference between allowing someone to defend themselves with a gun they have
- 22/12/2012 01:09:40 AM
843 Views
Which you apparently think they shouldn't be able to obtain? Catch-22 comes to mind.
- 22/12/2012 01:17:25 AM
888 Views
Re: Which you apparently think they shouldn't be able to obtain? Catch-22 comes to mind.
- 22/12/2012 09:51:51 AM
907 Views
A wood chipper isn't a gun, and evidence without proof isn't evidence
- 22/12/2012 06:10:34 PM
855 Views
If only you'd asked him for a citation rather than just saying you thought he was wrong eh? *NM*
- 23/12/2012 12:29:30 AM
639 Views
I think you are on the right track, but to the wrong destination; "lethal weapon" is redundant.
- 21/12/2012 11:05:29 PM
863 Views
My read is that the 2nd Amendment not only allows, but mandates, cop-killer bullets.
- 22/12/2012 12:45:04 AM
903 Views
Does the Second Amendment protect the rights of felons and the mentally incompetent to have guns?
- 22/12/2012 02:35:16 AM
1068 Views
Court rulings have determined that your Constitutional Rights can be restricted for felony/insanity *NM*
- 23/12/2012 12:59:31 PM
559 Views
Activist judges should not make law. 
- 23/12/2012 02:04:42 PM
878 Views
- 23/12/2012 02:04:42 PM
878 Views
I agree, but the courts have already ruled that way so we are stuck. *NM*
- 26/12/2012 03:03:35 PM
525 Views
Then I guess we need the courts to rule gun owners need screening, training and licensing.
- 26/12/2012 03:46:05 PM
871 Views
No, if you want to restrict the 2nd (or any other amendment) amend the Constitution
- 26/12/2012 07:56:19 PM
841 Views
I do not want to restrict the Second Amendment, only enact the regulations it explictly allows.
- 26/12/2012 08:50:09 PM
908 Views
I disagree with your interpretation. The simple EXISTANCE of the BoR makes it binding on the states
- 27/12/2012 03:46:17 PM
871 Views
"Congress shall make no law..." restricts the STATES? How, exactly?
- 28/12/2012 03:03:19 PM
835 Views
The 2nd amendment does not mention Congress in any way. There is that reading issue again.
- 28/12/2012 10:02:41 PM
782 Views
You said, "the Bill of Rights," not "the Second Amendment."
- 28/12/2012 11:10:00 PM
872 Views
Copy-N-Paste, get over it. we are specifically discussing the 2nd amendment, not everything.
- 29/12/2012 02:24:30 PM
763 Views
Some semi-autos are easily modified for full auto fire, making the distinction one w/o a difference.
- 21/12/2012 10:53:59 PM
942 Views
Correction: virtually all semi-automatics are easily convertable
- 21/12/2012 11:23:35 PM
880 Views
I have seen nothing on turning a semi-auto BAR into a fully automatic one.
- 22/12/2012 01:11:12 AM
795 Views
What's a BAR? In any event, link a diagram and I'll let you know
- 22/12/2012 01:26:31 AM
792 Views
Confusingly, there are two: The BAR you and I think of, and the "Browning BAR," a current semi-auto
- 22/12/2012 01:07:30 PM
909 Views
Department of Redundancy Department gets to name a lot of stuff, like "Milky Way Galaxy"
- 22/12/2012 05:01:45 PM
1069 Views
It only bothers me when people who know better speak of "the Glieseian solar system." 
- 26/12/2012 05:33:34 PM
951 Views
- 26/12/2012 05:33:34 PM
951 Views
Both terms are pretty stuck now
- 26/12/2012 10:48:38 PM
1017 Views
You realize that encourages rather than discourages my opposition to the usage, right?
- 27/12/2012 01:23:15 AM
794 Views
- 27/12/2012 01:23:15 AM
794 Views
Well I can't say it surprises
- 27/12/2012 04:29:06 AM
733 Views
Yes the media is using terms incorrectly but the point still stands.
- 22/12/2012 03:02:18 AM
795 Views
Re: Yes the media is using terms incorrectly but the point still stands.
- 22/12/2012 04:12:30 AM
853 Views
Yes people can always still kill each other, humans are very ingenuitive
- 22/12/2012 04:42:04 AM
824 Views
I took a driving exam when I was 16, and have never been tested since, nor will I ever be.
- 23/12/2012 01:17:05 PM
970 Views
Never is a long time; just renewing a license requires retaking the eye exam most places.
- 23/12/2012 02:16:54 PM
889 Views
Rather hard to do an eye exam online or through the mail.
- 26/12/2012 03:08:06 PM
972 Views
Yes, it is, which is why I have always had to go by DPS for a new license.
- 26/12/2012 03:50:04 PM
799 Views
Tennessee and Florida pass them out like candy. For several years TN offered a no ID license
- 26/12/2012 08:02:39 PM
807 Views
I still find it odd they require no eye test, that either allows the blind drivers licenses.
- 26/12/2012 08:58:57 PM
853 Views
Oh yeah, we have wandered off course *shrug*
- 27/12/2012 03:55:55 PM
957 Views
Voter registration while getting a drivers license is distinct from the ease of licensing.
- 28/12/2012 03:35:34 PM
931 Views
Re: Voter registration while getting a drivers license is distinct from the ease of licensing.
- 28/12/2012 10:14:32 PM
726 Views
If you can prove someone voted illegally, call the ACLU and claim your $1000.
- 28/12/2012 11:18:38 PM
882 Views
puhleeze.... election fraud is a fact. Pick a state, ANY state, ANY election...
- 29/12/2012 02:41:40 PM
840 Views
Clip size is meaningless, semi-autos and even revolvers can be reloaded VERY quickly. *NM*
- 23/12/2012 01:20:59 PM
524 Views
1997 North Hollywood Shootout
- 22/12/2012 04:07:39 AM
931 Views
typical NRA bullshit response
- 22/12/2012 04:53:40 AM
871 Views
typical Moondog bullshit response
- 23/12/2012 01:06:12 PM
879 Views
of course! there is no connection between having a gun and shooting someone. got it 
- 23/12/2012 02:33:18 PM
763 Views
- 23/12/2012 02:33:18 PM
763 Views
There is no corelation between decidng to kill someone and what tool you use.
- 26/12/2012 03:11:08 PM
825 Views
By that logic no one needs a gun for self-defense; a coffee mug is perfectly adequate.
- 26/12/2012 09:06:51 PM
875 Views
I can kill you with my coffee mug... RESPECT THE MUG but I wouldn't, I might spill the coffee.
- 27/12/2012 04:08:52 PM
736 Views
So you are saying you do not need a gun then? I will keep mine anyway, thanks.
- 28/12/2012 04:19:03 PM
824 Views
- 28/12/2012 04:19:03 PM
824 Views
You covered a bunch of different things, and completely misrepresentted what I wrote
- 28/12/2012 10:28:24 PM
865 Views
Home made explosives are pretty much always illegal; I did not want to overlook legal ones.
- 28/12/2012 11:44:19 PM
1058 Views
Re: Home made explosives are pretty much always illegal; I did not want to overlook legal ones.
- 29/12/2012 03:31:01 PM
808 Views
Laws against murder failed to prevent that, too; clearly they are ineffective and should be repealed
- 22/12/2012 06:02:24 AM
986 Views
Such laws were never intended for prevention, they define actions that will be punished. *NM*
- 23/12/2012 12:57:57 PM
561 Views
So do laws against getting a gun without screening, training and certification.
- 23/12/2012 02:01:32 PM
806 Views
Then CHANGE the Constitution, don't ignore it. *NM*
- 26/12/2012 03:12:11 PM
495 Views
I am not suggesting either changing or ignoring the Constitution.
- 26/12/2012 04:01:02 PM
914 Views
Yes you are.
- 26/12/2012 08:06:01 PM
715 Views
Learn logic, and stop needlessly trying to teach me grammar.
- 26/12/2012 08:55:25 PM
878 Views
Lear to read, and I won't have to
- 27/12/2012 04:28:59 PM
941 Views
Ironically, you misspelled "learn."
- 28/12/2012 05:15:17 PM
1172 Views
- 28/12/2012 05:15:17 PM
1172 Views
I know, I thought about going back and fixing the typo, but thought it was funny so I left it. 
*NM*
- 28/12/2012 10:34:06 PM
522 Views
*NM*
- 28/12/2012 10:34:06 PM
522 Views
2 commas or 4 makes no difference one is a 12D the other is a sentance.
- 28/12/2012 10:55:31 PM
808 Views
It makes a huge difference when (incorrectly) claiming to know the text.
- 28/12/2012 11:31:51 PM
1122 Views
and by REGULATED, the authors meeant "able to use it effectively"
- 29/12/2012 03:47:57 PM
876 Views
You are wrong.
- 22/12/2012 12:14:40 PM
890 Views
That explains much; I read somewhere Brits are averse to it.
- 22/12/2012 01:17:15 PM
812 Views
What bemuses me about this thing with Adam Lanza, is that his mother had 5 registered guns
- 23/12/2012 07:10:26 AM
908 Views
She also had many knives, and blunt objecs around the house. Tools are only as good as the user
- 23/12/2012 01:10:58 PM
900 Views
So clearly she wasn't prepared enough... btw, do we know she was sleeping?
- 27/12/2012 10:52:03 AM
838 Views
That she 1) was in bed, 2) had guns for self-defense and 3) was shot 4 times strongly suggests sleep
- 28/12/2012 11:49:20 PM
913 Views
She was asleep with him in the house.
- 23/12/2012 02:24:47 PM
881 Views
LOOK, look, there is another one...
- 26/12/2012 03:13:45 PM
821 Views
I find the absolutist ant/pro-gun positions equally dangerous and absurd.
- 26/12/2012 04:20:37 PM
796 Views
So we should just *kinda* ignore the Constitution *this* time... But what about NEXT time...
- 26/12/2012 08:08:12 PM
783 Views
No, we should enact gun regulation the Constitution explicitly empowers.
- 26/12/2012 09:02:12 PM
797 Views
Which would be... NONE. *NM*
- 27/12/2012 04:31:53 PM
500 Views
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state...."
- 28/12/2012 05:14:49 PM
790 Views
Your point being?
- 27/12/2012 10:47:29 AM
780 Views
I am certain it would have been better, though not good, if she had been awake and shot him.
- 27/12/2012 02:16:13 PM
901 Views
So the situation of Nancy and Adam shooting at each other
- 28/12/2012 07:44:12 AM
907 Views
No, I believe they were both mentally incompetent to have guns; that does not mean EVERYONE is.
- 28/12/2012 02:19:51 PM
824 Views
As a father, I would rather kill my own child than have him kill 26 other people.
- 27/12/2012 04:35:02 PM
736 Views
And as a father, you are somehow clairvoyant?
- 28/12/2012 07:43:08 AM
793 Views
Nice flippant unthinking reply, you and moondog should get together. *NM*
- 28/12/2012 04:55:14 PM
542 Views
How is my reply flippant? Your statement was unthinking, not mine.
- 29/12/2012 06:59:04 AM
833 Views
YOU asked if it would have been better for her to kill her own child instead, I answered.
- 29/12/2012 03:52:02 PM
844 Views
I asked if a shoot out between mother and son had been better, not whether she should have killed
- 29/12/2012 08:54:09 PM
775 Views
You make no sense.
- 31/12/2012 06:07:50 PM
849 Views
I make no sense to you because you probably just don't understand my point.
- 01/01/2013 08:09:11 AM
927 Views
Maybe the heat death of the univers occurs before you finally have a cohearant thought
- 01/01/2013 07:34:31 PM
840 Views
You do realize that resorting to personal attacks reveal an inability to make sound arguments? *NM*
- 02/01/2013 06:01:33 PM
594 Views
That is not an ad hominem attack, and your prior post was not very logically coherent
- 02/01/2013 08:59:16 PM
922 Views
Instead of actually showing why my arguments would be incoherent or why I'm immature, he just said
- 05/01/2013 02:02:23 AM
922 Views