Women are certainly encouraged to weigh in, but everyone is entitled to thoughts on the matter
Joel Send a noteboard - 28/10/2012 02:22:55 PM
Neither morality nor science are solely the province of either sex.
The biblical and related texts only forbid murder; whether abortion IS murder depends on whether a fetus is a person, a MEDICAL queston on which the bible is largely silent. The closest it comes is Exodus 21:22-25, but that covers injuring a fetus against a womans will, so the assault is against her as well.
In terms of science, the most incredible thing is that Akin is on the House Science and Technology Committee even though he thinks rape cannot cause pregnancy. But Republicans control the House, so they make its committee appointments. That is an object lesson for anyone willing to learn it.
My personal view is divine inspiration compensates for human failings, preventing true CORRUPTION, but human languages inherent LIMITATIONS preclude any written text fully conveying Gods position. We tell kids too young to understand fusion that stars are "burning" but, while strictly inaccurate, that is not FALSE, just oversimplified to aid their limited understanding and language.
Genesis creation is a good example: "Let there be light" squares so well with the Big Bang some scientists initially called the latter a Trojan Horse for the former, yet Bronze Age scribes had no word for "universe," and could only speak of "the world." Even if they understood God created stars and galaxies spanning billions of light years, how could they convey that in ancient Hebrew? That does not invalidate the text, only demonstrate the limitations of mere mortal words.
Even without considering translation, human language remains central to that criticism for the reason just demonstrated. Translation, however, does compound the problem; I like to think I know the texts fairly well, but I know them in English; I cannot share Tom and Dans credit for Greek knowledge I do not have (and for which I have consequently picked the brains of both more than once.)
Yet the bible is not and never claims to be a science text: It is a moral and philosophical text. It works phenomenally well on those bases, but the farther we deviate to subjects on which it says little or nothing, the less useful it is. The bible forbids murdering people; it does not define people. It is certainly fascinating that Genesis states myriad species were created in precisely the order evolution says they arose, but the bible is no more a biology text than it is a quantum physics text.
Gender concepts have little relevance to an omnipresent being such as God; their relevance lies in the perspective and language of the scribes.
I must note in passing that you do those scribes a disservice in saying they disdained humanism and caused the Dark Age. The Dark Age was caused by a series of periodic pagan marauding from the north and east that all but destroyed Christian Romes civilization. Europes eventual re-emergence afterward is due almost entirely to securely walled monasteries preserving what remained of classical knowledge and culture. Much of that was written in Greek, the lingua franca of educated Romans, but the monks painstakingly translating virtually all of it into Latin during the Dark Age made Latin the literate language by the end.
When that end came, scholasticism—and humanism—were born from theologians in those same monasteries. They surely disdained SECULAR humanism as a contradiction in terms (to the extent they acknowledged it at all, which was slight,) but created humanism. Scholasticisms development by St. Thomas Aquinas and humanisms culmination in Desiderus Erasmus occured, not despite their devotion to Christ and scripture, but because of it. Blaming the bible for thoroughly Christian Romes fall before wholly pagan assault, and ignoring its critical Medieval and Renaissance role, is a rather backward analysis of history.
Not to say there isn't some interesting discussion on this thread, but I do find it amazing that this thread seems to be mostly men discussing decisions about a woman's body.
That's what started this whole damned mess, ESPECIALLY since all of those texts were not only written by men, but by men with no concept of science or biology, and the fact that they were men who typically did not think of women as being anywhere near their equals.
That's what started this whole damned mess, ESPECIALLY since all of those texts were not only written by men, but by men with no concept of science or biology, and the fact that they were men who typically did not think of women as being anywhere near their equals.
The biblical and related texts only forbid murder; whether abortion IS murder depends on whether a fetus is a person, a MEDICAL queston on which the bible is largely silent. The closest it comes is Exodus 21:22-25, but that covers injuring a fetus against a womans will, so the assault is against her as well.
In terms of science, the most incredible thing is that Akin is on the House Science and Technology Committee even though he thinks rape cannot cause pregnancy. But Republicans control the House, so they make its committee appointments. That is an object lesson for anyone willing to learn it.
Even if divinely inspired, God's message still has to flow through the mind and body of those men before it reaches the paper leaving it open to corruption by the mind of the vessel, and that alone makes anything they wrote dealing with women suspect in my mind.
My personal view is divine inspiration compensates for human failings, preventing true CORRUPTION, but human languages inherent LIMITATIONS preclude any written text fully conveying Gods position. We tell kids too young to understand fusion that stars are "burning" but, while strictly inaccurate, that is not FALSE, just oversimplified to aid their limited understanding and language.
Genesis creation is a good example: "Let there be light" squares so well with the Big Bang some scientists initially called the latter a Trojan Horse for the former, yet Bronze Age scribes had no word for "universe," and could only speak of "the world." Even if they understood God created stars and galaxies spanning billions of light years, how could they convey that in ancient Hebrew? That does not invalidate the text, only demonstrate the limitations of mere mortal words.
I do credit you guys on your knowledge of the texts (and all that Greek!), but my personal belief is that with the "written word of God" shit gets lost or changed in translation, and I'm not talking human languages; I'm talking about how God's message is translated from inspiration to text on the page.
Even without considering translation, human language remains central to that criticism for the reason just demonstrated. Translation, however, does compound the problem; I like to think I know the texts fairly well, but I know them in English; I cannot share Tom and Dans credit for Greek knowledge I do not have (and for which I have consequently picked the brains of both more than once.)
Yet the bible is not and never claims to be a science text: It is a moral and philosophical text. It works phenomenally well on those bases, but the farther we deviate to subjects on which it says little or nothing, the less useful it is. The bible forbids murdering people; it does not define people. It is certainly fascinating that Genesis states myriad species were created in precisely the order evolution says they arose, but the bible is no more a biology text than it is a quantum physics text.
So what a bunch of men 2000 years ago claim some specifically MALE deity says about women and birth and all that is meaningless in a society that should have evolved out of the Dark Ages created by those same patriarch's disdain of rational thought and humanism, which led to said Dark Ages.
Gender concepts have little relevance to an omnipresent being such as God; their relevance lies in the perspective and language of the scribes.
I must note in passing that you do those scribes a disservice in saying they disdained humanism and caused the Dark Age. The Dark Age was caused by a series of periodic pagan marauding from the north and east that all but destroyed Christian Romes civilization. Europes eventual re-emergence afterward is due almost entirely to securely walled monasteries preserving what remained of classical knowledge and culture. Much of that was written in Greek, the lingua franca of educated Romans, but the monks painstakingly translating virtually all of it into Latin during the Dark Age made Latin the literate language by the end.
When that end came, scholasticism—and humanism—were born from theologians in those same monasteries. They surely disdained SECULAR humanism as a contradiction in terms (to the extent they acknowledged it at all, which was slight,) but created humanism. Scholasticisms development by St. Thomas Aquinas and humanisms culmination in Desiderus Erasmus occured, not despite their devotion to Christ and scripture, but because of it. Blaming the bible for thoroughly Christian Romes fall before wholly pagan assault, and ignoring its critical Medieval and Renaissance role, is a rather backward analysis of history.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
God Distances Self From Christian Right
26/10/2012 01:56:18 PM
- 1219 Views
Do you really think God would condone abortion? *NM*
26/10/2012 03:28:25 PM
- 356 Views
Depends on when a fetus is a being, which the GOP contends is "at the moment of fertilization."
26/10/2012 03:57:44 PM
- 549 Views
Actually, I don't see any place in the Bible where God is....
26/10/2012 04:00:19 PM
- 723 Views
Where did I say one word about God accommodating our sin?
26/10/2012 05:55:52 PM
- 585 Views
You're technically right, Joel, but...
26/10/2012 07:32:10 PM
- 592 Views
Almost may count in hand grenades, but definitely not in canon.
26/10/2012 10:28:57 PM
- 632 Views
Your lack of scientific understanding is everything in this instance.
26/10/2012 10:44:05 PM
- 584 Views
Because whether God intends rape is aaaall about science, right?
26/10/2012 11:08:16 PM
- 513 Views
You're getting rather emphatic.
26/10/2012 11:27:07 PM
- 581 Views
Broad fundamental change to US law by controlling all three branches of government provokes that.
27/10/2012 12:44:59 AM
- 567 Views
Condemn women to die? What a strange way to look at this.
26/10/2012 07:17:16 PM
- 636 Views
women *did* die before abortion was legalized, there should be no dispute of this aspect
26/10/2012 07:27:28 PM
- 641 Views
So we legalize an illegal act because some are willing to harm themselves to do it? *NM*
26/10/2012 10:02:37 PM
- 316 Views
no, we legalize the act so that it can be performed safely without killing both mother *and* child *NM*
26/10/2012 11:08:52 PM
- 330 Views
Very good point, but that was not (at least soley) what I meant, no.
26/10/2012 11:12:32 PM
- 561 Views
If something should be illegal in its own right, it is nonsense to legalize it because criminals
26/10/2012 11:40:41 PM
- 585 Views
If banning it saves no lives but inevitably takes more, the ban is counterproductive.
27/10/2012 12:48:51 AM
- 610 Views
That is absolutely absurd. It saves the lives of all...
27/10/2012 12:59:16 AM
- 624 Views
you're still missing the point that abortions will still be performed if it were illegal
27/10/2012 01:02:57 AM
- 526 Views
I'm not missing the point, you are.
27/10/2012 01:21:39 AM
- 684 Views
This isn't necessarily true, though it is often due to other factors.
27/10/2012 02:48:00 PM
- 618 Views
People who want abortions badly enough to have one will, whether or not law makes it "convenient."
27/10/2012 02:58:52 AM
- 528 Views
Telling a woman whose life was in danger not to save it with abortion condemned her to die
26/10/2012 10:48:53 PM
- 535 Views
There is no proof that you would accept that a fetus is a child.
26/10/2012 11:31:50 PM
- 528 Views
Fantastic question.
26/10/2012 11:43:51 PM
- 562 Views
No, I would err on the side of caution; have often said as much in just those words.
27/10/2012 01:18:19 AM
- 549 Views
Sure there is; show me a fetus acting indepedently and consciously.
27/10/2012 01:15:00 AM
- 551 Views
Perfect example of media sensationalism
26/10/2012 04:13:41 PM
- 629 Views
I agree with your larger point and am not trying to be argumentative
26/10/2012 04:29:23 PM
- 604 Views
yeah, but what do women know about women's issues? this is man talk time!
26/10/2012 05:01:58 PM
- 569 Views
THAT is the whole problem with his comment.
26/10/2012 05:59:40 PM
- 528 Views
Or it could mean....
26/10/2012 11:50:53 PM
- 584 Views
Having addressed this in response to Legolas in moondogs thread on Mourdock, I will just link that.
27/10/2012 01:43:48 AM
- 592 Views
I agree
26/10/2012 07:27:21 PM
- 619 Views
It's always a slippery slope, talking about what God did and did not intend.
27/10/2012 12:06:22 AM
- 583 Views
There is a logically consistent way; you did not ask for it, so I will be brief.
27/10/2012 02:53:09 AM
- 590 Views
Pregnancy cannot be separated from its cause.
26/10/2012 05:51:28 PM
- 575 Views
God intends everything.
27/10/2012 04:40:58 PM
- 660 Views
"Intends" is a big word.
27/10/2012 09:23:13 PM
- 604 Views
It is sad that this is getting more press than the Bengazi scandal *NM*
26/10/2012 05:58:22 PM
- 313 Views
that's probably because it's more relevant to most people's lives *NM*
26/10/2012 06:06:10 PM
- 330 Views
This entire scandal really speaks to the Calvinist heresy in particular.
26/10/2012 07:10:38 PM
- 544 Views
I was trying REALLY hard to avoid putting it in precisely those terms.
26/10/2012 10:12:17 PM
- 592 Views
Well, but really, the fundamental crux of the issue is precisely that.
27/10/2012 01:03:26 AM
- 560 Views
True, but disputing founding articles of faith benefits from tact.
27/10/2012 02:02:48 AM
- 534 Views
Come on, Tom.
27/10/2012 03:29:39 AM
- 532 Views
I believe HE grasps the difference between predestination and determinism well.
27/10/2012 09:33:14 PM
- 595 Views
The comment that sparked this was moronic even to the vast majority of religious conservatives. *NM*
26/10/2012 09:42:51 PM
- 331 Views
Yet its author remains the only Senate nominee for whom Romney is running ads.
26/10/2012 10:53:37 PM
- 547 Views
Is the senator's comment more disgusting to you than the President's vote against the
26/10/2012 11:54:55 PM
- 558 Views
how does one vote against a bill which passed by unanimous consent?
27/10/2012 12:11:37 AM
- 560 Views
As a state senator in 2001 in illinois he was the sole opponent to the aforementioned bill. *NM*
27/10/2012 12:14:08 AM
- 330 Views
[citation needed]
27/10/2012 12:15:41 AM
- 513 Views
It was an illinois state bill. *NM*
27/10/2012 12:23:12 AM
- 316 Views
yes, i finally found *something* regarding a state bill which he did oppose
27/10/2012 12:34:40 AM
- 552 Views
The BAIPA became federal law 2 years before Obamas Senate win; he says he would have voted for it.
27/10/2012 02:33:26 AM
- 535 Views
Once he started taking fire for it he said he would have voted for it? Well that clears that up.
27/10/2012 07:09:21 AM
- 740 Views
He "took fire" for a federal law passed before he was in Congress?
27/10/2012 04:08:25 PM
- 620 Views
amazing
28/10/2012 05:04:21 AM
- 664 Views
Women are certainly encouraged to weigh in, but everyone is entitled to thoughts on the matter
28/10/2012 02:22:55 PM
- 541 Views