Almost may count in hand grenades, but definitely not in canon.
Joel Send a noteboard - 26/10/2012 10:28:57 PM
...the problem is that if you're looking at it from a traditional Christian perspective then your nine week statement is just as arbitrary as any other. While the Bible doesn't say anything about abortion, there are plenty of early Christian works that nearly made the Bible that do explicitly prohibit abortion generally:
οὐ φονευσεις τεκνον ἐν φθορᾷ οὐδε γεννηθεν αποκτενεις - Didache 2:2.
Thou shalt not kill a child in the womb, nor shalt thou kill one born.
NB: Barnabas repeats the exact phrase with the sole modification that it puts the word παλιν, "already" before γεννηθεν, "born". The text of "thou shalt not kill" in the Septuagint is identical: οὐ φονευσεις.
Because I know how touchy you are on dating issues, let me quote from the critical apparatus:
The Didache may have been put into its present form as late as 150, though a date considerably closer to the end of the first century seems more probable. The materials from which it was composed reflect the state of the church at an even earlier time. The relative simplicity of the prayers, the continuing concern to differentiate Christian practice from Jewish rituals (8.1), and in particular the form of church structure - note the twofold structure of bishops and deacons (cf. Phil. 1:1) and the continued existence of traveling apostles and prophets alongside a resident ministry - reflect a time closer to that of Paul and James (who died in the 60s) than Ignatius (who died sometime after 110).
As a result, while I applaud your newly-found logical skills ( ), Jeordam can fall back on a Christian tradition that makes no distinction on the timing of abortion unless you can somehow qualify the statements made in the Early Church.
οὐ φονευσεις τεκνον ἐν φθορᾷ οὐδε γεννηθεν αποκτενεις - Didache 2:2.
Thou shalt not kill a child in the womb, nor shalt thou kill one born.
NB: Barnabas repeats the exact phrase with the sole modification that it puts the word παλιν, "already" before γεννηθεν, "born". The text of "thou shalt not kill" in the Septuagint is identical: οὐ φονευσεις.
Because I know how touchy you are on dating issues, let me quote from the critical apparatus:
The Didache may have been put into its present form as late as 150, though a date considerably closer to the end of the first century seems more probable. The materials from which it was composed reflect the state of the church at an even earlier time. The relative simplicity of the prayers, the continuing concern to differentiate Christian practice from Jewish rituals (8.1), and in particular the form of church structure - note the twofold structure of bishops and deacons (cf. Phil. 1:1) and the continued existence of traveling apostles and prophets alongside a resident ministry - reflect a time closer to that of Paul and James (who died in the 60s) than Ignatius (who died sometime after 110).
As a result, while I applaud your newly-found logical skills ( ), Jeordam can fall back on a Christian tradition that makes no distinction on the timing of abortion unless you can somehow qualify the statements made in the Early Church.
I am far less willing to take the whole New Testament on faith, because much of it never makes any claims to divine inspiration. There is a huge difference between designating Exodus the second book of Gods holy law, delivered through the divinely inspired prophets, and Paul advising a little wine for Timothys indisgestion, or penning a personal plea with which a fugitive slave can seek clemency on voluntary return to his master. Yet even the Didache fell short of the high canon standards Timothy and Philemon somehow met. I fault none of them, but neither do I hang my spiritual hat on their entirety, at least not automatically.
Setting all that aside though, we would still have a variation of the same basic problem: Forbidding us to "kill a child in the womb" does not establish when it becomes a child. Until/unless it does, the prohibition applies no more to a fetus than to a cancerous lung. Egg cells are alive with or without fertilization, yet billions of womens bodies kill them monthly, and no one (including God) calls it murder. The issue is not whether murder should be legal, but when there is a person TO murder.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
God Distances Self From Christian Right
26/10/2012 01:56:18 PM
- 1223 Views
Do you really think God would condone abortion? *NM*
26/10/2012 03:28:25 PM
- 356 Views
Depends on when a fetus is a being, which the GOP contends is "at the moment of fertilization."
26/10/2012 03:57:44 PM
- 551 Views
Actually, I don't see any place in the Bible where God is....
26/10/2012 04:00:19 PM
- 725 Views
Where did I say one word about God accommodating our sin?
26/10/2012 05:55:52 PM
- 588 Views
You're technically right, Joel, but...
26/10/2012 07:32:10 PM
- 595 Views
Almost may count in hand grenades, but definitely not in canon.
26/10/2012 10:28:57 PM
- 633 Views
Your lack of scientific understanding is everything in this instance.
26/10/2012 10:44:05 PM
- 588 Views
Because whether God intends rape is aaaall about science, right?
26/10/2012 11:08:16 PM
- 516 Views
You're getting rather emphatic.
26/10/2012 11:27:07 PM
- 584 Views
Broad fundamental change to US law by controlling all three branches of government provokes that.
27/10/2012 12:44:59 AM
- 570 Views
Condemn women to die? What a strange way to look at this.
26/10/2012 07:17:16 PM
- 640 Views
women *did* die before abortion was legalized, there should be no dispute of this aspect
26/10/2012 07:27:28 PM
- 644 Views
So we legalize an illegal act because some are willing to harm themselves to do it? *NM*
26/10/2012 10:02:37 PM
- 317 Views
no, we legalize the act so that it can be performed safely without killing both mother *and* child *NM*
26/10/2012 11:08:52 PM
- 331 Views
Very good point, but that was not (at least soley) what I meant, no.
26/10/2012 11:12:32 PM
- 565 Views
If something should be illegal in its own right, it is nonsense to legalize it because criminals
26/10/2012 11:40:41 PM
- 588 Views
If banning it saves no lives but inevitably takes more, the ban is counterproductive.
27/10/2012 12:48:51 AM
- 611 Views
That is absolutely absurd. It saves the lives of all...
27/10/2012 12:59:16 AM
- 628 Views
you're still missing the point that abortions will still be performed if it were illegal
27/10/2012 01:02:57 AM
- 529 Views
I'm not missing the point, you are.
27/10/2012 01:21:39 AM
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This isn't necessarily true, though it is often due to other factors.
27/10/2012 02:48:00 PM
- 623 Views
People who want abortions badly enough to have one will, whether or not law makes it "convenient."
27/10/2012 02:58:52 AM
- 529 Views
Telling a woman whose life was in danger not to save it with abortion condemned her to die
26/10/2012 10:48:53 PM
- 537 Views
There is no proof that you would accept that a fetus is a child.
26/10/2012 11:31:50 PM
- 530 Views
Fantastic question.
26/10/2012 11:43:51 PM
- 567 Views
No, I would err on the side of caution; have often said as much in just those words.
27/10/2012 01:18:19 AM
- 551 Views
Sure there is; show me a fetus acting indepedently and consciously.
27/10/2012 01:15:00 AM
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Perfect example of media sensationalism
26/10/2012 04:13:41 PM
- 631 Views
I agree with your larger point and am not trying to be argumentative
26/10/2012 04:29:23 PM
- 606 Views
yeah, but what do women know about women's issues? this is man talk time!
26/10/2012 05:01:58 PM
- 572 Views
THAT is the whole problem with his comment.
26/10/2012 05:59:40 PM
- 530 Views
Or it could mean....
26/10/2012 11:50:53 PM
- 586 Views
Having addressed this in response to Legolas in moondogs thread on Mourdock, I will just link that.
27/10/2012 01:43:48 AM
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I agree
26/10/2012 07:27:21 PM
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It's always a slippery slope, talking about what God did and did not intend.
27/10/2012 12:06:22 AM
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There is a logically consistent way; you did not ask for it, so I will be brief.
27/10/2012 02:53:09 AM
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Pregnancy cannot be separated from its cause.
26/10/2012 05:51:28 PM
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God intends everything.
27/10/2012 04:40:58 PM
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"Intends" is a big word.
27/10/2012 09:23:13 PM
- 609 Views
It is sad that this is getting more press than the Bengazi scandal *NM*
26/10/2012 05:58:22 PM
- 314 Views
that's probably because it's more relevant to most people's lives *NM*
26/10/2012 06:06:10 PM
- 331 Views
This entire scandal really speaks to the Calvinist heresy in particular.
26/10/2012 07:10:38 PM
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I was trying REALLY hard to avoid putting it in precisely those terms.
26/10/2012 10:12:17 PM
- 599 Views
Well, but really, the fundamental crux of the issue is precisely that.
27/10/2012 01:03:26 AM
- 562 Views
True, but disputing founding articles of faith benefits from tact.
27/10/2012 02:02:48 AM
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Come on, Tom.
27/10/2012 03:29:39 AM
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I believe HE grasps the difference between predestination and determinism well.
27/10/2012 09:33:14 PM
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The comment that sparked this was moronic even to the vast majority of religious conservatives. *NM*
26/10/2012 09:42:51 PM
- 332 Views
Yet its author remains the only Senate nominee for whom Romney is running ads.
26/10/2012 10:53:37 PM
- 552 Views
Is the senator's comment more disgusting to you than the President's vote against the
26/10/2012 11:54:55 PM
- 561 Views
how does one vote against a bill which passed by unanimous consent?
27/10/2012 12:11:37 AM
- 563 Views
As a state senator in 2001 in illinois he was the sole opponent to the aforementioned bill. *NM*
27/10/2012 12:14:08 AM
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[citation needed]
27/10/2012 12:15:41 AM
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It was an illinois state bill. *NM*
27/10/2012 12:23:12 AM
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yes, i finally found *something* regarding a state bill which he did oppose
27/10/2012 12:34:40 AM
- 555 Views
The BAIPA became federal law 2 years before Obamas Senate win; he says he would have voted for it.
27/10/2012 02:33:26 AM
- 537 Views
Once he started taking fire for it he said he would have voted for it? Well that clears that up.
27/10/2012 07:09:21 AM
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He "took fire" for a federal law passed before he was in Congress?
27/10/2012 04:08:25 PM
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amazing
28/10/2012 05:04:21 AM
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Women are certainly encouraged to weigh in, but everyone is entitled to thoughts on the matter
28/10/2012 02:22:55 PM
- 544 Views