From a legal perspective, all of your arguments are irrelevant
Tom Send a noteboard - 21/10/2012 03:12:39 PM
Voting in the United States was originally established under dozens of assumptions: women should not vote, slavery existed and slaves were only 3/5 of a person for census purposes (and certainly could not vote), property ownership was necessary to be civic, etc.
Tradition, and even legislative intent, are only important when the scope of a law is being reviewed by an appellate court (including the Supreme Court). However, when laws are intentionally changed, that legislative intent and tradition become irrelevant.
From a Constitutional perspective, equal protection under the law has nothing to do with tradition, previous application or anything else. The argument that the law is being applied in a discriminatory manner is the basis for the challenge, and in this case it is clear that there is a valid argument (whether or not ultimately accepted by the court) for discrimination. Prior application can be overturned, even after decades of implementation, such as in Brown v. Board of Education.
Under your reasoning, in the Brown case we would just say, "Well, the laws were written with the intent of having separate schools, and it's been the tradition in the South to keep the races separate all the way back to the foundation of the Republic, and furthermore, the notion that the races should remain separate is a historic reality stretching back to Biblical times, when God enjoined the nation of Israel to remain separate from the peoples around it. We also have Plessy v. Ferguson which decided the matter."
However, the law can change (1) when we affirmatively change it, dispensing with "tradition" or (2) when a successful challenge is made that the Constitutional right of equal protection is invalid.
My response was simply to say that polygamy could be distinguished from gay marriage in a strictly legal manner, because the privilege is for two people. I think that any attempt to normalize three- or four- person relationships (or more) would by necessity fail, because employers would not want to have to extend insurance to more than one spouse, existing inheritance laws would have to be changed, etc. It could theoretically be done, but there is no requirement to change anything to accommodate threesomes.
The point was that there is no "slippery slope".
As an aside, the childbearing argument is a worthless one. There is no requirement that a couple ever have children or even plan on having children in order to get a marriage license. The argument that the homosexual can choose to enjoy the benefits of marriage if only he or she would marry someone of the opposite sex ignores reality, just like a miscegenation law which could theoretically be defended on the grounds that a black person could enjoy the benefits of marriage if only he or she would stay within the African race to marry. The overwhelming evidence that homosexuality is not a choice puts the issue squarely in the same general category as sex or race.
Tradition, and even legislative intent, are only important when the scope of a law is being reviewed by an appellate court (including the Supreme Court). However, when laws are intentionally changed, that legislative intent and tradition become irrelevant.
From a Constitutional perspective, equal protection under the law has nothing to do with tradition, previous application or anything else. The argument that the law is being applied in a discriminatory manner is the basis for the challenge, and in this case it is clear that there is a valid argument (whether or not ultimately accepted by the court) for discrimination. Prior application can be overturned, even after decades of implementation, such as in Brown v. Board of Education.
Under your reasoning, in the Brown case we would just say, "Well, the laws were written with the intent of having separate schools, and it's been the tradition in the South to keep the races separate all the way back to the foundation of the Republic, and furthermore, the notion that the races should remain separate is a historic reality stretching back to Biblical times, when God enjoined the nation of Israel to remain separate from the peoples around it. We also have Plessy v. Ferguson which decided the matter."
However, the law can change (1) when we affirmatively change it, dispensing with "tradition" or (2) when a successful challenge is made that the Constitutional right of equal protection is invalid.
My response was simply to say that polygamy could be distinguished from gay marriage in a strictly legal manner, because the privilege is for two people. I think that any attempt to normalize three- or four- person relationships (or more) would by necessity fail, because employers would not want to have to extend insurance to more than one spouse, existing inheritance laws would have to be changed, etc. It could theoretically be done, but there is no requirement to change anything to accommodate threesomes.
The point was that there is no "slippery slope".
As an aside, the childbearing argument is a worthless one. There is no requirement that a couple ever have children or even plan on having children in order to get a marriage license. The argument that the homosexual can choose to enjoy the benefits of marriage if only he or she would marry someone of the opposite sex ignores reality, just like a miscegenation law which could theoretically be defended on the grounds that a black person could enjoy the benefits of marriage if only he or she would stay within the African race to marry. The overwhelming evidence that homosexuality is not a choice puts the issue squarely in the same general category as sex or race.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
For all you supporters of Gay Marriage: What about polygamy?
20/10/2012 12:02:06 AM
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Legal rights.
20/10/2012 12:14:10 AM
- 785 Views
should be legal, would be nice for poly people. should include polygyny and polyandry. *NM*
20/10/2012 03:29:05 AM
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Government needs to stop legislating morality. So yes *NM*
20/10/2012 03:36:37 AM
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That's a huge chunk of what government does.
20/10/2012 04:35:45 PM
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That's not what I'm saying
21/10/2012 03:21:08 AM
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So you're opposed to abortion and gun control then? Welcome aboard!
21/10/2012 06:14:14 AM
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Why do you keep talking about gay marriage and polygamy in the same sentence..
20/10/2012 03:58:26 AM
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Get a grip. Your response is just what I tried to avoid.
20/10/2012 04:33:40 AM
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The more fool you.
21/10/2012 05:55:30 AM
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This, and legal recognition of it, is precisely why marriage has become an Equal Protection issue.
22/10/2012 03:40:01 PM
- 706 Views
Because they are both violations of the paradigm of genuine marriage. Like it or not.
21/10/2012 05:49:32 AM
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I have no problem with polygamy being legal, but marriage is a privilege and can be limited to two.
20/10/2012 04:16:08 AM
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The only problem with that is that it was established with a heterosexist assumption
21/10/2012 06:33:32 AM
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From a legal perspective, all of your arguments are irrelevant
21/10/2012 03:12:39 PM
- 833 Views
This really is blatantly obvious, but still it might bear repeating...
21/10/2012 04:43:13 PM
- 723 Views
Yes, but only if its equal. Multi-people relationships should be more acceptable by society.
20/10/2012 05:15:24 AM
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"Polygamy" is the all-inclusive term; whether or not he meant it, he said it.
22/10/2012 04:31:09 PM
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I support autogamy in addition to various forms of exogenic relationships
20/10/2012 05:49:07 AM
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Have you seen the Glee episode where Sue Sylvester conducts a marriage of herself to herself? *NM*
20/10/2012 09:50:32 AM
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I am fine with it if all existing parties to the marriage consent to each addition.
20/10/2012 10:10:19 AM
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The case for polygamy has really weakened rather than strenghtened, you might say.
20/10/2012 03:53:34 PM
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I have no problem with it, but as Amy says, it's not really relevant. *NM*
20/10/2012 05:40:50 PM
- 397 Views
Legalize polygamy and create a familymaking process, but don't cover polygamy under marriage.
20/10/2012 10:14:58 PM
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The state shouldn't even recognize marriage beyond name changes anyway
21/10/2012 03:52:40 AM
- 746 Views
Indeed
21/10/2012 06:04:41 AM
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I don't give a damn what you call it. That's your business.
21/10/2012 06:17:40 AM
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And so?
21/10/2012 07:05:08 AM
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Re: And so?
21/10/2012 04:10:19 PM
- 876 Views
So can we call it garriage, give the same legal effect and call it good? *NM*
22/10/2012 03:28:33 AM
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According to your argument we could afford gay couples the same legal privileges...
22/10/2012 03:20:17 AM
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"...separate educational facilities are inherently unequal."
22/10/2012 04:45:31 PM
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That may well be the ideal solution. And also the most ironically amusing in how it would fail.
22/10/2012 07:35:05 PM
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We already went there and did that in '04, and yes, it was funny as f--k.
22/10/2012 09:51:49 PM
- 620 Views
Agreed in principle, but custody/cohabitation/assets go well beyond name change.
22/10/2012 04:37:09 PM
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This is the sort of thing that *needs* to be about principle
23/10/2012 04:54:10 AM
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Parental, property and other rights need government protection, and thus government involvement.
23/10/2012 05:14:37 AM
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Legal contracts must be open to all consenting adults, or none.
22/10/2012 03:11:55 PM
- 756 Views
You are correct, yet your reasoning is flawed.
23/10/2012 03:20:25 PM
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Again, the Equal Protection Clause has far less force on private entities than on government.
23/10/2012 03:52:06 PM
- 620 Views
Much less force, yes.
23/10/2012 04:15:03 PM
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The crux is "If it's my business, it's my business."
23/10/2012 04:43:25 PM
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Re: The crux is "If it's my business, it's my business."
23/10/2012 07:15:17 PM
- 639 Views
Like you said: By referring to "all invididuals" (or, better, "persons" or "citizens.")
24/10/2012 04:14:55 PM
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But we know very well that it doesn't have dire commercial consequences.
25/10/2012 07:17:55 PM
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I have several friends who practice polyamory, if they wanted to marry I would support it. *NM*
24/10/2012 06:47:58 PM
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