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nobody is arguing the legal right to marry, they are arguing about the legal rights marriage gives moondog Send a noteboard - 19/10/2012 11:37:14 PM
1: There is NO legal right to marriage, PERIOD. You will not find marriage in the Constitution (the location of ALL our rights). There is NO right.


i never claimed there were. the legal rights involved deal with the union of two people, whatever their gender may be. inheritance rights, hospital visitation, power of attorney, citizenship status and many other rights are given to legally recognized marriages. these are the things that gay people are asking, not a separate classification.

the only time the separate classification comes in is when state legislatures try to create a "domestic partnership" or "civil union" in an effort to provide the legal framework of a marriage without running afoul of DOMA. by not defining the "civil union" as marriage, it can be ruled legal. but by not defining it as marriage, it is automatically not the same as marriage. gay couples can call themselves married without going through the paperwork, but if one of them should end up spending a lot of time in the hospital, the person they call their husband/wife is not legally able to share their potentially last moments with them. they are not able to make the decision to keep their spouse on life support if need be. they are not able to inherit their spouse's belongings the way a heterosexual couple can -- tax free.

the only thing DOMA and the various state laws against gay marriage do is create a second class of citizens who do not and will not have these rights and the many others that belong to legally recognized marriages. all the gay community is asking for is the same legal protections that straight couples already have. the only place that it becomes contentious is by calling it marriage for everyone, not just for the single man and single woman couple, but for any couple regardless of their gender.


3: The existing framework is man and woman; man and man, or woman and woman is something different, thus not the same.


but the existing framework can include man/man or woman/woman. please provide an actual legal basis for why it should not. what purpose is there for the government to deny a man/man or woman/woman relationship the same rights and status as a man/woman relationship. in other words, why does the government have the right to tell people who they are allowed to be in a relationship with? for what social purpose does it serve to deny them the same legal benefits?


4: The point is (and Utah does not accept polygamy either) that it is NOT about equal rights. If it was then it would be about eliminating ANY restriction upon who can form a marriage, but it is not (Me too. Me too. No, not them; just me too).


how is it not about equal rights? there is one specifically defined group (man/woman marriage) who has more rights than other groups (man/man or woman/woman marriages). you are trying to reduce this to an absurd argument which holds no weight. the only thing that is being asked is to allow marriages between two people who are not specifically man/woman relationships. nothing more, and nothing less.


We got legally divorced (with children) and it was about as amicable as possible. We get along much better divorced than we ever did married, I just enjoy the cliche :)


luckily i did not end up having kids with my now ex-wife, but the divorce was also about as amicable as could be. even so, what the both of us went through both in being married and ending those marriages provided us a legal framework that gay couples currently do not have. this is why it is an equal rights issue, and why it is a legal matter to be settled in this country. we can't call ourselves the land of the free if we have a group which does not share the same rights as the rest of the country. again, it was once illegal to marry outside your race. i would have never married my ex if we still had those laws (and it's questionable now whether i should have to begin with :P ). but if it is wrong to deny marriage to inter-racial couples, then it should also be wrong to deny marriage to same sex couples.
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2nd Circuit rules in favor of Edith Windsor. DOMA unconstitutional. - 18/10/2012 08:37:12 PM 902 Views
An excellent ruling. Thanks for the post. *NM* - 18/10/2012 08:47:54 PM 256 Views
Oh, and they addressed the First Circuit's argument: - 18/10/2012 08:54:47 PM 710 Views
I always knew that DomA guy was bad news. - 18/10/2012 09:05:13 PM 466 Views
As it should be; the DoMA was always a brazen affront to the Equal Protection Clause - 19/10/2012 12:06:13 AM 713 Views
Not really - 19/10/2012 02:16:04 PM 636 Views
Not quite - 19/10/2012 02:56:56 PM 504 Views
Yes, really, for "any CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT." - 19/10/2012 03:12:11 PM 608 Views
joel, please stop - 19/10/2012 05:42:51 PM 571 Views
That's such a stupid, puerile argument. - 19/10/2012 03:47:26 PM 588 Views
Not the best analogy, though I agree with the sentiment. - 19/10/2012 04:10:11 PM 516 Views
Then by the "legal argument" you all propose I should have the "right" to marry a spoon... - 19/10/2012 05:48:32 PM 548 Views
if your spoon or dog is capable of making power of attorney decisions then by all means do so *NM* - 19/10/2012 06:41:43 PM 257 Views
How about I "marry" a corporation then. THAT is how stupid the entire arguement is. *NM* - 19/10/2012 07:25:13 PM 248 Views
Another good example of how corporations aren't the same as people. *NM* - 19/10/2012 10:07:32 PM 252 Views
Would you be the bride? Would you wear white? - 20/10/2012 07:58:52 PM 504 Views
You have obviously not read my posts very carefully - 22/10/2012 04:23:22 PM 480 Views
Ah, the "I have Gay Friends" argument. - 22/10/2012 09:33:41 PM 501 Views
It was only a matter of time. - 19/10/2012 02:49:21 PM 556 Views
I do not understand why fundamentalists demand government dictate religion. - 19/10/2012 03:22:54 PM 714 Views
Which is why the entire method of legal attack being mounted is dumb. - 19/10/2012 05:53:12 PM 625 Views
the only ones forcing their beliefs down everyone's throats are people like yourself - 19/10/2012 06:44:57 PM 595 Views
There is no right being denied... - 19/10/2012 07:22:24 PM 558 Views
that is bullshit and you know it. or, alternatively, you do not understand legality in any way - 19/10/2012 08:06:54 PM 618 Views
Re: that is bullshit and you know it. or, alternatively, you do not understand legality in any way - 19/10/2012 11:11:55 PM 683 Views
nobody is arguing the legal right to marry, they are arguing about the legal rights marriage gives - 19/10/2012 11:37:14 PM 512 Views
There are no "marriage rights" NONE, zip, ziltch, nada... - 22/10/2012 04:18:15 PM 570 Views
why bother settling custody in a divorce then if there are no "marriage rights"? - 22/10/2012 06:38:14 PM 461 Views
You obviously have no idea what a right is. - 22/10/2012 11:49:26 PM 798 Views
No? - 19/10/2012 11:34:36 PM 537 Views
Really - 22/10/2012 04:29:38 PM 537 Views
You are making one, huge factual mistake that is screwing up your entire argument: - 20/10/2012 11:00:28 PM 581 Views
Nope I am not - 22/10/2012 04:34:59 PM 521 Views
That is just it: Most US marriage laws are already areligious. - 23/10/2012 05:08:38 PM 536 Views
Yes, the laws are 100% secular... - 23/10/2012 07:01:08 PM 504 Views

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