There are two separate issues: 1) Was it a simultaneous catch; 2) IF not, was it a strip?
Joel Send a noteboard - 27/09/2012 08:54:52 AM
If the answer to either question is "yes," the TD call was correct. Further, because a TD was the call on the field, it could only be reversed if the replay showed incontrovertible proof the answer to both questions is "no." I just do not see any convincing argument for that.
No, my position is that possession is simultaneous (and goes to the receiver by rule) if they both grab it at the same time, and that the receiver does need both hands on the ball to accomplish that. HOWEVER, even if that is not the case, and the defender has uncontested possession, the receiver may still strip him and gain uncontested possession himself until/unless the defender is ruled down.
Because the call on the field was a TD, the burden of proof is to demonstrate Tate did NOT have possession of the ball, not to prove he did. Granted, I have only seen online video, but when doing so it looks to me like Tates right hand is over Jennings arm and on the BALL at the point of Jennings reception, evidence for simultaneous possession. Shortly thereafter he appears to get his left hand on the ball as well, though I am aware of no NFL rule requiring a receiver possess a ball with both hands (and one handed catches are, though unusual far from unheard of.)
However (and once again,) even if Jennings had uncontested possession, Tate could still have stripped him and gained uncontested possession himself until/unless Jennings was down. The pictures and videos I have seen do not show anything but Jennings' feet on the ground; the rest of his body is either on Tate (not the ground) or not visible. Since a player is only down by contact when any part of their body except feet or hands touch the ground, there is no way to definitively say Jennings was down, and Tate could have legally stripped him and gained uncontested possession even if he never previously had contested possession.
Live action, I would almost certainly have called that simultaneous possession and a TD; again, the refs on the field do not have the benefit of slo mo replays, zooms and stills to aid them in making that call. At game speed there is NO way you can tell me you could have said with certainty that was not a simultaneous catch. And in that situation, once a call—ANY call—is made it is impossible to overturn; there is simply no incontrovertible evidence with which to do so. That play demonstrates the importance of refs who know and apply the rules well, not because those refs did not, but because they DID yet their many less competent critics THINK they did not.
It may be the worst thing to happen to the WI GOP since Joe McCarthy though, which gives me a great deal of guilty amusement. Ultimately, there is a world of difference between public employee unions who have several remedies against imperious management (the ballot box chief among them) and private unions who do not. However, that is being completely lost in ridicule of Walker and Ryans past attacks on public unions juxtaposed with their support of the referees union now that the strike has harmed Wisconsins home team. On the other hand, it is not as if the WI GOP is exactly cozy with private unions either, so the ridicule is mostly deserved even if not because of the specific anti-public union law Walker signed. The best part was Ryans Through the Looking Glass argument Obama cost GB the game.
the position you keep arguing is that -- in the specific situation when a defender catches a pass for an interception and a receiver is right there to try to stop him from making the interception -- if the receiver tries to take the ball away from the defender at any point after the interception has been made, all he has to do is keep one hand on the ball while they go to the ground and it is a simultaneous catch.
No, my position is that possession is simultaneous (and goes to the receiver by rule) if they both grab it at the same time, and that the receiver does need both hands on the ball to accomplish that. HOWEVER, even if that is not the case, and the defender has uncontested possession, the receiver may still strip him and gain uncontested possession himself until/unless the defender is ruled down.
is no point where tate has CLEAR possession of the ball but there are several points where jennings does. in the last frame of the picture above the ball is clearly against jennings' body and tate is underneath him. not only that, but tate's right arm is ON JENNINGS and not the ball. i can think of no ruling ever in the history of the NFL where this was considered a simultaneous possession until monday night.
Because the call on the field was a TD, the burden of proof is to demonstrate Tate did NOT have possession of the ball, not to prove he did. Granted, I have only seen online video, but when doing so it looks to me like Tates right hand is over Jennings arm and on the BALL at the point of Jennings reception, evidence for simultaneous possession. Shortly thereafter he appears to get his left hand on the ball as well, though I am aware of no NFL rule requiring a receiver possess a ball with both hands (and one handed catches are, though unusual far from unheard of.)
However (and once again,) even if Jennings had uncontested possession, Tate could still have stripped him and gained uncontested possession himself until/unless Jennings was down. The pictures and videos I have seen do not show anything but Jennings' feet on the ground; the rest of his body is either on Tate (not the ground) or not visible. Since a player is only down by contact when any part of their body except feet or hands touch the ground, there is no way to definitively say Jennings was down, and Tate could have legally stripped him and gained uncontested possession even if he never previously had contested possession.
Live action, I would almost certainly have called that simultaneous possession and a TD; again, the refs on the field do not have the benefit of slo mo replays, zooms and stills to aid them in making that call. At game speed there is NO way you can tell me you could have said with certainty that was not a simultaneous catch. And in that situation, once a call—ANY call—is made it is impossible to overturn; there is simply no incontrovertible evidence with which to do so. That play demonstrates the importance of refs who know and apply the rules well, not because those refs did not, but because they DID yet their many less competent critics THINK they did not.
It may be the worst thing to happen to the WI GOP since Joe McCarthy though, which gives me a great deal of guilty amusement. Ultimately, there is a world of difference between public employee unions who have several remedies against imperious management (the ballot box chief among them) and private unions who do not. However, that is being completely lost in ridicule of Walker and Ryans past attacks on public unions juxtaposed with their support of the referees union now that the strike has harmed Wisconsins home team. On the other hand, it is not as if the WI GOP is exactly cozy with private unions either, so the ridicule is mostly deserved even if not because of the specific anti-public union law Walker signed. The best part was Ryans Through the Looking Glass argument Obama cost GB the game.
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 27/09/2012 at 08:55:13 AM
/NFL: now that replacement refs have cost the packers a win, can we please get the real ones back? *NM*
25/09/2012 05:14:58 AM
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Link? Clip?
25/09/2012 05:27:07 AM
- 646 Views
Let's just say that Gruden used the word "Jobbed" in the live telecast. *NM*
25/09/2012 05:35:08 AM
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Here's a link.
25/09/2012 05:36:56 AM
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Yes and no; that is the link I referenced in my post.
25/09/2012 05:47:07 AM
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youtube link
25/09/2012 07:00:29 AM
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Thanks; that looks like a textbook case of simultaneous possession, which goes to the receiver: TD.
25/09/2012 07:29:28 AM
- 635 Views
pete carroll is a cheating douchebag, you cannot take his word for what happened
25/09/2012 10:59:33 AM
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I did not; I watched the clip: Simultaneous possession, which goes to the receiver.
26/09/2012 01:30:18 AM
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watch a better replay if you can
26/09/2012 02:38:17 AM
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Have now; still not convinced.
26/09/2012 04:01:23 AM
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also, the pass interference on tate that wasn't called is clear at 0:56 in that clip
25/09/2012 11:27:36 AM
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Tate was looking for the ball, and raised his hands to catch it, not push off Sam Shields.
26/09/2012 01:33:46 AM
- 651 Views
watch a better replay and get back to me on this one.
26/09/2012 02:36:43 AM
- 700 Views
Where did the NFL head office acknowledge that?
26/09/2012 03:52:36 AM
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in their official response to the whole incident....?
26/09/2012 04:14:52 AM
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Fair enough then; the NFLs official position is that offensive PI should have been called.
26/09/2012 04:45:58 AM
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Yeah, if one hand counts as possession
25/09/2012 05:15:37 PM
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Left hand between Jennings' arms and on the ball; right was outside Jennings' arm and on the ball.
26/09/2012 01:38:28 AM
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How have you not seen this play? Are you in a cave? *NM*
25/09/2012 03:57:55 PM
- 349 Views
No, I am in Norway, where NFL coverage is rather limited.
26/09/2012 01:40:07 AM
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While you can hardly blame the replacement refs because they are basically trainees...
25/09/2012 06:05:22 AM
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Now I really want to see this play.
25/09/2012 06:27:42 AM
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Re: Now I really want to see this play.
25/09/2012 02:48:56 PM
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I have still only seen the YouTube clip, but it looked like they both had both hands on the ball.
26/09/2012 01:58:27 AM
- 653 Views
You might appreciate learning that the Lingerie Football League fired some of these refs
25/09/2012 07:19:37 AM
- 729 Views
Tie goes to the receiver - the rule for decades. The Packers benefitted from worse calls last year
25/09/2012 11:31:47 AM
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you probably think greedo shot first too.....
25/09/2012 01:49:03 PM
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Possession doesn't mean squat until you land. Tate had it by then
25/09/2012 03:13:29 PM
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he had nothing until they landed and he tried to pull it away. everyone but you agrees on this *NM*
25/09/2012 03:25:43 PM
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Not so; Cannoli and I agree on pretty much every point involved in this play.
26/09/2012 02:17:01 AM
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They can't reverse that call.
25/09/2012 04:43:28 PM
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the only possible way was to rule it incomplete
25/09/2012 10:42:25 PM
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It was very obviously caught; you can't rule that incomplete.
25/09/2012 11:06:17 PM
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my philosophy is "interception = incomplete" but i think that's only for stats purposes
26/09/2012 12:32:43 AM
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Congrats Cannoli, you are the only person (thing?) in the country who thinks it's a TD *NM*
25/09/2012 03:53:18 PM
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I'm not even the only person in this thread, moron. *NM*
25/09/2012 04:07:48 PM
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Joel hasn't even seen the play, douchebag *NM*
25/09/2012 04:12:35 PM
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I have seen enough of it, and while I did not write Cannolis response, I easily could have.
26/09/2012 02:06:45 AM
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Slightly (very) loopy yet entertaining piece on why Ayn Rand is to blame for all of this.
25/09/2012 05:38:12 PM
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She hates revenue sharing, salary caps & the draft, too, but the Pack would be screwed without each.
26/09/2012 03:34:00 AM
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Here's the proof Cannoli is refusing to see
25/09/2012 05:54:07 PM
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Clearer shot, but stills do not allow us to see where Tates hands were at all times.
26/09/2012 02:10:25 AM
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you can't claim "good ol' strip" *AND* simultaneous catch -- which is it?
26/09/2012 02:35:41 AM
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I do not claim both: I claim simultaneous catch but IF not, then strip.
26/09/2012 03:51:47 AM
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you sure you saw the right replay?
26/09/2012 04:21:57 AM
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Think so, yeah.
26/09/2012 04:58:15 AM
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from another angle -- pun intended
26/09/2012 04:01:54 PM
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There are two separate issues: 1) Was it a simultaneous catch; 2) IF not, was it a strip?
27/09/2012 08:54:52 AM
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your opinion is against pretty much everyone in the world, so..... *shrug*
27/09/2012 03:55:33 PM
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Thanks; I did not expect you to give in so easily.
27/09/2012 10:14:30 PM
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did you even read that article???
28/09/2012 12:35:39 AM
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"his control wasn’t established again...."
28/09/2012 01:08:03 AM
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wow, what a thorough analysis you sent me either way, you're still wrong
28/09/2012 02:05:24 AM
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Worst calls are made all the time by the regular officials.
26/09/2012 01:23:57 AM
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yes, but not usually more than one per game, certainly not several in a single weekend.... *NM*
26/09/2012 02:39:56 AM
- 357 Views