That just sounds like more conspiracy allegations based on desire rather than evidence.
Joel Send a noteboard - 25/09/2012 07:15:06 AM
Look at where Gnosticism was prevalent - in the East, closer to the place of Christ's life and ministry and where the more robust Christian communities existed. Look at Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians, look at the Gospel of John. There are clear indications about further initiations. The Christian religion was always multi-tiered; many were called (psychics, baptized in water) but few were chosen (pneumatics, baptized in fire and the Holy Spirit). The secret books were not freely distributed because they were forbidden from being freely distributed. They were only for the inner circle. Then, as the Church spread westwards, people who didn't have an inner circle began to deny that one even existed. Christianity, like many other things, started to fall to the lowest common denominator.
I mean, you are right, of course, except that I do not find it terribly convincing. Is there any evidence of such hidden inner mysteries in extant texts, or allusions to lost ones? Even when Paul speaks of "mysteries," he does not conceal, but openly describes them to the extent possible. He does not state them as things known to a few initiates but reserved from outsiders and laity, but things incomprehensible to his and all mortal minds, however "enlightened." He also expounds more sophisticated doctrine in detail several times, explaining he had previously omitted (but NEVER concealed) it from readers until they were ready to receive it. There are certainly varying levels of understanding, but none are actively withheld, just not specifically mentioned to those yet too new to appreciate them.
There is no reason to believe Christianity ever deliberately concealed any doctrine (beyond Christ concealing His divinity and fated Crucifixion until near the end; "follow Me and you will all die slow excruciating deaths like Me" is a weak opener, however strong a finish. ) The only reason for anyone to believe that is the obstinate Gnostic assertion "all gods are gnosis god" and thus Christianity, like all religion past, present or future, is just a Gnostic archetype. You know them better than I: Do Thomas or the other Gnostic texts hold any admonitions to guard their deep mysteries (far less profound or transcendent than the Incarnation, Crucifixion, Atonement, Resurrection or Christs wedding to the Church) from ignorant rabble? If that were the goal, recording and disseminating it would be a poor approach.
It's a convincing hypothesis, and there is evidence to support it.
Such as? Gnostics saying so? That kind of self-referential evidence cuts both ways, but documentation of Christianity is older and more broadly supported.
Ultimately, I think that the foundation of the teaching of Christ, love, was not meant to be withheld or stratified with initiations, but particularly for people who are agnostic or atheist and looking at the spread of Christianity, Gnosticism helps them make sense of it and see it as another mystery-religion. I don't see it as "just another mystery-religion", but when you talk about early Christianity as history rather than as an article of faith, you have to act as a scientist.
"At first we thought it was just another snake-cult, but now their towers are everywhere..."
"At first we thought it was just another snake-cult, but now their towers are everywhere..."
It does not fit with the proselytzing and missionaries though, particularly not for something that began as an exclusively Jewish sect. I had not thought of it in those terms, but when you put it that way the whole Gnostic premise is rather contradictory: "We want to enlighten EVERYONE by restricting our profound wisdom to our own inner circle." In that respect, Gnosticism is more vulnerable to accusations of domination and self-aggrandizement Gnostics then and Neo-Gnostics now level at the Church.
I take your point about the need for objectivity, but also that Christianitys basis (God and love) and the practices it prompts (sacrifice, fellowship, proselytizing) preclude insular secretive mystery religions. The first two could only logically arise from the last if spectacularly virulent aberrations from it. Yet all documentary evidence indicates Christianity as we understand it is the original, or at least older, doctrine, and GNOSTIC heterodoxy a later insurgency by existing elements unrelated to Christianity until they sought to absorb it. Anything is hypothetically possible, but claims Gnostic versions of Christianity are not only the older but ORIGINAL form demand more evidence than mid to late Second Century Gnostics asserting it supported by neither documentary evidence nor historic traditions.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
So, about this silly "Jesus' wife" story making the rounds...
19/09/2012 10:55:55 PM
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That's right! Jesus' position on marriage was "One man, no woman." *NM*
19/09/2012 11:05:55 PM
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What is the context? The canonical bible says Christ has a wife: The Church.
19/09/2012 11:25:19 PM
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Oh please...don't confuse "wife" with "bride"
19/09/2012 11:35:09 PM
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What word do the Prophets use for Israels relationship to God?
20/09/2012 12:38:20 AM
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BRIDE
20/09/2012 03:39:30 PM
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I love your last two sentences. They're a really nice description. *NM*
20/09/2012 07:58:19 PM
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That makes sense for an eternal God, but sounds like a wife who remains a bride.
20/09/2012 08:56:07 PM
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It's "bride" in the Old Testament as well.
20/09/2012 09:48:37 PM
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The distinction is important for preserving the newlywed condition, but not for this fragment.
20/09/2012 11:21:52 PM
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Two things why it is important
20/09/2012 04:24:37 AM
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Did someone hit you over the head? "Two things why it is important"? Really?
20/09/2012 03:50:02 PM
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Something I forgot to ask you about last night: What is your take on Daniels messianic prophecy?
20/09/2012 09:21:32 PM
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I don't get that at all. "And will be no more", or "And will have nothing" is better.
20/09/2012 10:13:20 PM
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It is the King James text, which I have never heard anyone call heretical.
20/09/2012 11:15:54 PM
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The King James Bible is aesthetically pleasing but a bad translation.
21/09/2012 12:03:00 AM
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I like the NKJV because it tries to include all ambiguities.
21/09/2012 12:47:38 AM
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There is a very good reason no one dismissed the illegitmate gospels as illegitimate until 180 AD:
20/09/2012 09:15:05 PM
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The Gospel of Thomas was written before 180 AD.
20/09/2012 09:33:44 PM
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What is the oldest extant text of or reference to it?
20/09/2012 11:11:03 PM
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The Oxyrhynchus fragments were dated to c. 200 AD, and they are copies
21/09/2012 12:18:33 AM
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I would buy 200 AD, of course.
21/09/2012 12:58:32 AM
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It's not about "buying" it - it's essentially proven at that point.
21/09/2012 03:26:50 AM
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Yes; all I meant was that I never disputed a date around 200 AD.
22/09/2012 12:25:41 AM
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I don't think any of the gospels were written by their purported authors.
22/09/2012 03:36:32 AM
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Not even Mark or Luke?
22/09/2012 01:21:24 PM
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Well, but everyone knew Peter didn't speak Greek
22/09/2012 09:46:57 PM
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True, but everyone also knew Paul spoke it fluently, and he would have been an ideal choice.
24/09/2012 06:20:22 AM
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Some people did "lie big".
24/09/2012 02:11:58 PM
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I forgot about (or possibly repressed memories of) the Gnostics "Gospel" of Peter.
24/09/2012 11:26:43 PM
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I'm not trying to defend Gnosticism doctrinally, but...
24/09/2012 11:51:40 PM
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I am not relying SOLELY (or chiefly) on popularity though.
25/09/2012 02:21:01 AM
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The Gnostic response would be:
25/09/2012 06:01:58 AM
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That just sounds like more conspiracy allegations based on desire rather than evidence.
25/09/2012 07:15:06 AM
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The issue of evidence for Gnosticism would make this thread unnecessarily long.
25/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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What about those who postulate a mid-to-late 1st century composition?
22/09/2012 02:21:18 AM
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Elaine Pagels ceased to be an impartial academic a long time ago.
22/09/2012 03:41:41 AM
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Suspected as much, but wanted to see if you thought so as well
22/09/2012 03:47:05 AM
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Let's not get started on Funk
22/09/2012 09:48:05 PM
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don't these people have anything better to do?
20/09/2012 11:39:35 PM
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Clearly not.
22/09/2012 12:27:29 AM
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