I am not relying SOLELY (or chiefly) on popularity though.
Joel Send a noteboard - 25/09/2012 02:21:01 AM
From a strictly logical perspective, your arguments are circular. Pauline sources validated a gospel, therefore it is true. The gospel is true because it reaffirms what the people who recognized it believed.
The proponent of a Gnostic vision of Christianity will counter that, had Valentinus not lost the PR war inside Christianity (by having a message that was less popular but which could theoretically have been more correct and closer to the real teachings of Jesus), we would have plenty of Valentinian sources that would renounce, say, the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, as well as the writings of Eusebius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, as "heretical". The "Orthodox Gnostic Church" would base its claim to orthodoxy on the fact that Valentinus was taught by Paul's disciple, Theudas.
The proponent of a Gnostic vision of Christianity will counter that, had Valentinus not lost the PR war inside Christianity (by having a message that was less popular but which could theoretically have been more correct and closer to the real teachings of Jesus), we would have plenty of Valentinian sources that would renounce, say, the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, as well as the writings of Eusebius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, as "heretical". The "Orthodox Gnostic Church" would base its claim to orthodoxy on the fact that Valentinus was taught by Paul's disciple, Theudas.
The main thing I rely on is the Synoptic Gospels much earlier dating (which has added weight in light of the scholarly consensus they were not themselves original, but products of the even earlier lost Q text.) It was not just a PR war, after all; the Synoptic Gospels and Pauline school with which they are consistent were better established and more pervasive because they had been around longer. That is not in itself conclusive, no, but does give the Synoptic Gospels closer proximity to Christ Himself, and the closer they are to the Source the more unassailable they become.
So when hidden Gnostic gospels came along they naturally ran afoul of the established Church. Fans of heterodoxy as an end in itself consider that a badge of honor, but fighting a vast conspiracy loses its nobility if the conspiracy is just an empty allegation contrived to legitimize ones own agenda. Opposing a conspiracy revealed by a pattern of anti-Christian behavior and doctrine is one thing, but opposing the established Church simply because it disagrees with some novel personal warping of Christian doctrine is quite another. The Church did not reject Mormonism because it had something personal against Joseph Smith or was jealously guarding its temporal power, but because he made up a entire new doctrine out of wholecloth and tried to promote it as "real" Christianity.
Of course the early Church was consistent with the Synoptic and Johanine Gospels, for the very compelling reason they provided its best and earliest understanding of the Rock on which the Church was founded. Even by generous estimates they had already shaped Church doctrine for at least a generation before any Gnostic "Gospels" existed, and not as an overt Gnostic attempt to coopt Christianity as it was systematically doing with all other religions. The Church long and largely dependent on the former to the exclusion of the latter inevitably ACCEPTED the former to the exclusion of the latter, even if it did not formally do so until the end of the Fourth Century. That is not conclusive, but is corroborative.
It is a case of convention reflecting chronology and therefore increasing its significance, but the chronology and distinction are what I find most convincing. The Christianity of the Gospels is not another generic mystery religion, and was recorded in them well before the end of the First Century. In skimming Wikipedia articles on the subject I ran across a quote from a scholar noting that none of the canonical Gospels mentions the destruction of Herods Temple in 70 AD, despite several mentions of Christs prophecy it would be torn down until no stone stood upon another. Obviously any author would want to include clear fulfilment of explicit prophecy, and the canonical authors routinely did; omitting that one strongly suggests its fulfilment is absent because it had not yet occurred.
That places all the canonical Gospels at or before 70 AD, meaning they were accepted as, well, GOSPEL, decades (if not a century) before the Gnostic alternatives existed. That makes it very hard to accept any later writings not fully consistent with them and the early Church so tightly bound to them. The gnostic writings conflict with so many of the Church Fathers is, again, not conclusive, but underscores the conflict between gnostic texts and the canonical ones dating from a time and authors much closer to Christ Himself.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
So, about this silly "Jesus' wife" story making the rounds...
19/09/2012 10:55:55 PM
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That's right! Jesus' position on marriage was "One man, no woman." *NM*
19/09/2012 11:05:55 PM
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What is the context? The canonical bible says Christ has a wife: The Church.
19/09/2012 11:25:19 PM
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Oh please...don't confuse "wife" with "bride"
19/09/2012 11:35:09 PM
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What word do the Prophets use for Israels relationship to God?
20/09/2012 12:38:20 AM
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BRIDE
20/09/2012 03:39:30 PM
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I love your last two sentences. They're a really nice description. *NM*
20/09/2012 07:58:19 PM
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That makes sense for an eternal God, but sounds like a wife who remains a bride.
20/09/2012 08:56:07 PM
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It's "bride" in the Old Testament as well.
20/09/2012 09:48:37 PM
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The distinction is important for preserving the newlywed condition, but not for this fragment.
20/09/2012 11:21:52 PM
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Two things why it is important
20/09/2012 04:24:37 AM
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Did someone hit you over the head? "Two things why it is important"? Really?
20/09/2012 03:50:02 PM
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Something I forgot to ask you about last night: What is your take on Daniels messianic prophecy?
20/09/2012 09:21:32 PM
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I don't get that at all. "And will be no more", or "And will have nothing" is better.
20/09/2012 10:13:20 PM
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It is the King James text, which I have never heard anyone call heretical.
20/09/2012 11:15:54 PM
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The King James Bible is aesthetically pleasing but a bad translation.
21/09/2012 12:03:00 AM
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I like the NKJV because it tries to include all ambiguities.
21/09/2012 12:47:38 AM
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There is a very good reason no one dismissed the illegitmate gospels as illegitimate until 180 AD:
20/09/2012 09:15:05 PM
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The Gospel of Thomas was written before 180 AD.
20/09/2012 09:33:44 PM
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What is the oldest extant text of or reference to it?
20/09/2012 11:11:03 PM
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The Oxyrhynchus fragments were dated to c. 200 AD, and they are copies
21/09/2012 12:18:33 AM
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I would buy 200 AD, of course.
21/09/2012 12:58:32 AM
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It's not about "buying" it - it's essentially proven at that point.
21/09/2012 03:26:50 AM
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Yes; all I meant was that I never disputed a date around 200 AD.
22/09/2012 12:25:41 AM
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I don't think any of the gospels were written by their purported authors.
22/09/2012 03:36:32 AM
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Not even Mark or Luke?
22/09/2012 01:21:24 PM
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Well, but everyone knew Peter didn't speak Greek
22/09/2012 09:46:57 PM
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True, but everyone also knew Paul spoke it fluently, and he would have been an ideal choice.
24/09/2012 06:20:22 AM
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Some people did "lie big".
24/09/2012 02:11:58 PM
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I forgot about (or possibly repressed memories of) the Gnostics "Gospel" of Peter.
24/09/2012 11:26:43 PM
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I'm not trying to defend Gnosticism doctrinally, but...
24/09/2012 11:51:40 PM
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I am not relying SOLELY (or chiefly) on popularity though.
25/09/2012 02:21:01 AM
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The Gnostic response would be:
25/09/2012 06:01:58 AM
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That just sounds like more conspiracy allegations based on desire rather than evidence.
25/09/2012 07:15:06 AM
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The issue of evidence for Gnosticism would make this thread unnecessarily long.
25/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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What about those who postulate a mid-to-late 1st century composition?
22/09/2012 02:21:18 AM
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Elaine Pagels ceased to be an impartial academic a long time ago.
22/09/2012 03:41:41 AM
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Suspected as much, but wanted to see if you thought so as well
22/09/2012 03:47:05 AM
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Let's not get started on Funk
22/09/2012 09:48:05 PM
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don't these people have anything better to do?
20/09/2012 11:39:35 PM
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Clearly not.
22/09/2012 12:27:29 AM
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