Active Users:1152 Time:23/11/2024 12:29:28 AM
No more so than Iraq, but at least there was a threat to America to fight in Afghanistan. Joel Send a noteboard - 23/09/2012 04:51:14 AM
Without force there is no government just a bunch of guys making suggestions. If guns are used to protect the ballot box, as they were in Iraq, then you have the first to democracy. True democracy requires a change of power decided by the ballot box and they don't really have that yet.

So would you say then that the US is governed by force, or simply not governed? Regardless, Iraq does not even have guns used to protect the ballot box, just another in a long line of kleptocrats with power based on a preponderance of US-supplied weapons.

I Iraq there was a society that was being repressed and they were liberated. Some people used that liberation to try and get revenge for the previous repression but the foundations for a modern society were there. None of that is true in Afghanistan now and it wasn't true ten years ago.

They are still repressed; the only difference is that the faction responsible now varies by locale. THIS is Iraq today:

Considerable tensions remain between various political and sectarian factions in Iraq. The majority Shiite government recognized Asaib Ahl al-Haq, an Iranian-backed militia, as a legitimate political party, and Iranian influence is growing in other ways; in January 2012, the commander of Iran’s Quds Force reportedly said that Iraq (as well as southern Lebanon) were under Iranian control.

The Iraqi National Movement, representing the majority of Sunnis, boycotted Parliament for several weeks in late 2011 and early 2012, claiming that the Shiite-dominated government was striving to sideline Sunnis. In January 2012, Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi, a Sunni, fled to the semi-autonomous Kurdish region after the government accused him of running a sectarian death squad; in February, a panel of Iraqi judges concluded that "death squads commanded by Mr. Hashimi carried out 150 attacks over six years against religious pilgrims, security officers and political foes".

Insurgent forces continue to be active.

We did not "liberate" them, we removed the only obstacle (Saddam) to a bloody three-way civil war between Sunni/Shiite Iraqis and Kurds. If that does not happen now it will only because Iran assumes full control of the country (possibly precipitating a second Iran-Iraq War, though perhaps not, since that was mainly Saddams idea, or perhaps Reagan, who took in a lot of federal revenue selling guns to both sides.)

I get it, man: Bushs Iraq war against someone even Congressional Republicans five years earlier admitted was no threat to the US was holy and just (i.e. Republican) and Obamas Afghan war against someone who sheltered and trained the people who blew up the Twin Towers is bloody fools errand (i.e. Democratic.) Even though Bush started that war, too (he just never finished it any more than the other.)

Partisanship aside, however, Iraq was and is no more "democracy ready" than Afghanistan; if anything, 30 years of Saddams rigid police state made them far less prepared for it than 10 years of Taliban theocracy did Afghanistan.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
Biden claims Romney wants war with Syria and Iran. - 02/09/2012 10:48:24 PM 859 Views
Biden should be busy preparing to debate Ryan so he is not shredded, instead of saying stupid things - 02/09/2012 11:52:35 PM 535 Views
+1 - Biden is going to get destroyed by Ryan..... - 03/09/2012 02:23:49 AM 347 Views
I try not to think about it. - 03/09/2012 02:47:33 AM 555 Views
We should introduce a new military doctrine - 03/09/2012 02:46:33 AM 423 Views
I still think the post-war Axis powers the best model, but that requires equivalent manpower. - 03/09/2012 03:57:12 AM 460 Views
It's a terrible model. - 03/09/2012 11:42:36 PM 343 Views
Re: It's a terrible model. - 04/09/2012 04:09:21 AM 531 Views
I recently read Stephen Ambrose's Band of Brothers, about a regiment from the 101st in WW2. - 04/09/2012 10:29:01 PM 485 Views
wars they didn't start themselves? how do you figure that? - 04/09/2012 10:45:07 PM 410 Views
We cannot hold all Afghanistan/Iraq accountable for governments against which they were powerless. - 04/09/2012 11:54:46 PM 450 Views
so what? Governments habe always been who goes to war - 05/09/2012 02:55:25 AM 469 Views
True, but we cannot hold people responsible for actions of their undemocratic governments. - 05/09/2012 03:19:20 AM 417 Views
well thanks to the US they now have democratcily elected governments and can be held accountable *NM* - 05/09/2012 02:30:41 PM 179 Views
Democratically elected? We will be propping it up with the US Army for at least two more years. - 05/09/2012 07:19:21 PM 445 Views
being propped up by the US military doesn't make it not a democracy - 05/09/2012 07:29:42 PM 373 Views
Political power that comes out of the barrel of a gun precludes democracy. - 05/09/2012 09:01:40 PM 454 Views
it was always a lost cost and all governments are backed up by the barrel of a gun - 05/09/2012 09:49:51 PM 428 Views
No more so than Iraq, but at least there was a threat to America to fight in Afghanistan. - 23/09/2012 04:51:14 AM 349 Views
I said start. I quite agree with you about the things that went on after the wars themselves ended. - 05/09/2012 08:51:58 PM 491 Views
shooting at our aircraft is none hostile? - 05/09/2012 10:06:07 PM 432 Views
Eh. It's not the beginning of a war, no. - 05/09/2012 10:31:52 PM 449 Views
An act of war is almost by definition the beginning of a war. - 23/09/2012 04:58:25 AM 438 Views
It is very difficult to reconcile this post with Toms. - 04/09/2012 11:50:06 PM 387 Views
Yes, I noticed that. - 05/09/2012 09:27:14 PM 428 Views
Apparently I only THOUGHT I responded to this post (sorry.) - 23/09/2012 04:30:47 AM 442 Views
Thanks Tom, Joel, and Legolas. *NM* - 03/09/2012 03:56:56 PM 132 Views
I don't think Romney is that interested in starting a war with anyone - 04/09/2012 02:39:14 PM 456 Views
Re: Biden claims Romney wants war with Syria and Iran. - 05/09/2012 04:22:51 AM 424 Views

Reply to Message